“I Never Had Sex Again.”: The E. Jean Carroll Interview
As the House finally votes to demand the release of the Epstein files, Gaslit Nation talks to journalist E. Jean Carroll about her new book Not My Type: One Woman vs. a President. Carroll shares her chilling story of taking on a serial predator, and how to defeat not just Trump but the system that empowers him.
Trump owes Carroll $83.3 million in her rape and defamation case against him. But he’s decided to drag things out by taking the case to the Supreme Court–which he packed with Republican idealogues. Carroll shares how she became one of the few people on the planet to successfully hold Trump legally liable, her advice for other rape survivors during this dangerous time, and what she thinks is actually in the Epstein files.
While the media hyperventilates over Epstein and what Trump may or may not have known, they somehow keep “forgetting” that Trump has already been found liable for rape. In Not My Type: One Woman vs. a President, Carroll shares her story of surviving Trump’s vindictive legal war chest with incredible grace, strength, and humor–taking us inside the nihilistic minds of his sychopantic legal team. She describes the thrill of confronting Trump in court with the truth, and describes the crushing cost women pay for daring to take on any man for rape, let alone the President of the United States.
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Show Notes:
If you, or someone you know, is a survivor of rape–you are not alone. There are several support networks for survivors. For a comprehensive list of options, the Boston Area Rape Crisis Center (BARCC) put together resources for survivors. Do not suffer in silence. Reach out and ask for help: https://barcc.org/get-help/resources/
Not My Type: One Woman vs. a President https://bookshop.org/p/books/not-my-type-one-woman-vs-a-president-e-jean-carroll/fb4802f812cba0d7?ean=9781250381682&next=t
Jeffrey Epstein’s Brother Claims He Heard ‘from a Pretty Good Source’ That Epstein Files Are Being Scrubbed of Republican Names https://people.com/epstein-s-brother-heard-from-a-pretty-good-source-that-the-epstein-files-are-being-scrubbed-of-republican-names-11851691
Op-Ed: Alina Habba should be removed as acting U.S. attorney for New Jersey https://hudsoncountyview.com/op-ed-alina-habba-should-be-removed-as-acting-u-s-attorney-for-new-jersey/
Appeals court upholds E. Jean Carroll’s $83.3 million defamation judgment against Trump https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/appeals-court-upholds-e-jean-carrolls-83-3-million-defamation-judgment-against-trump
Trump asks Supreme Court to overturn E Jean Carroll verdict https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj0egyzm5yjo
Clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOPxssNm0Nk
Clip: https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m5wc7pimqs2u
Clip: https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m5wdk6wjoo2j
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Deborah Norville (00:01):
A dramatic moment in a New York courtroom today as columnist E. Jean Carroll testified that former president Donald Trump raped her decades ago in a department store. But before she took the stand, the judge slammed Trump for what he called an entirely inappropriate post. He made on social media warning that if Mr. Trump doesn't back off, he may face sanctions. Here's Steven Fabian.
Steven Fabian (00:26):
The magazine writer, accusing Donald Trump of rape almost three decades ago, took the stand today. E. Jean Carroll's testimony pulled no punches from the start with her attorney, asking her simply, why are you here? She responded, I'm here because Donald Trump raped me. And when I wrote about it, he said, it didn't happen. He lied. I'm here to get my life back. The magazine writer went on to describe how the alleged assault has had a lasting impact. With her saying on the stand, this has left me unable to ever have a romantic life again. At one point when she was narrating it in pretty graphic detail, she appeared to get pretty choked up.
(01:06):
Carol claimed she was sexually assaulted in a changing room at the upscale department store, Bergdorf Goodman, which is across the street from Trump Tower on Fifth Avenue. Trump wrote on social media yesterday that the case is a made up scam. Prompting the judge to warn his legal team today that he could be risking contempt of court.
Andrea Chalupa (01:37):
Welcome to Gaslight Nation. I am your host, Andrea Chalupa, a journalist and filmmaker and the writer and producer of the journalistic thriller, Mr. Jones, about Stalin's genocide famine in Ukraine, the film Kremlin doesn't way to see, so be sure to watch it. And this is Gaslit Nation, a show about corruption in America and rising autocracy worldwide.
(01:58):
Thank you to everyone who joined us for another lively Gaslit Nation salon on Monday. I always learn so much from you. Today the house voted to finally release to the Epstein Files. Senate Majority Leader John Thune promises a quick vote to send it to President Trump's desk. But in our taxpayer funded Oval Office, Trump hosted murderous millennial MBS who killed dissident writer Jamal Khashoggi of the Washington Post. They're paling around. But then MBS became uncomfortable when confronted by journalism, something that never happens in Saudi Arabia. He was pressed about the murder of Khashoggi, which the CIA confirmed he personally ordered. Trump, of course, protected his fellow Uber oligarch who pumps so much money into the Trump and Kushner families. And so, of course, Trump not only denies, but even implies that Khashoggi had it coming.
Donald Trump (03:02):
You're mentioning somebody that was extremely controversial. A lot of people didn't like that gentleman that you're talking about. Whether you like him or didn't like him, things happen, but he knew nothing about it, and we can leave it at that. You don't have to embarrass our guests by asking a question like that.
Andrea Chalupa (03:18):
And of course, Trump was asked by ABC news, why don't you, as president of the United States, just release the Epstein files. To which Trump threatened to pull the broadcast licensing for ABC News.
Mary Bruce (ABC) (03:30):
Mr. President, why wait for Congress to release the Epstein files? Why not just do it now?
Donald Trump (03:35):
It's not the question that I mind. It's your attitude. I think you are a terrible reporter. It's the way you ask these questions. You start off with a man who is highly respected asking him a horrible insubordinate and just a terrible question. And you could even ask that same exact question nicely. You're all psyched. Somebody psychs you over at ABC you're going to psych. You're a terrible person and a terrible reporter.
Andrea Chalupa (04:06):
Don't put a lot of weight into what isn't the Epstein files when we finally get them released, if Trump doesn't veto them because he is a wannabe dictator who is defending another dictator in our Oval Office and threatening a journalist and insulting her to her face because she is a strong woman standing up to him. And in that theme, and always forever in our lives with that theme here to help us make sense of what might actually be in the Epstein files and more importantly how to defeat Trump and the system that empowers him, is icon, American patriot, journalist and survivor E. Jean Carroll, author of the new book, "Not My Type: One Woman vs a President." Obviously we are all huge fans of yours. You are an icon outside of your historic story of standing up to Donald Trump, sexual predator, serial sexual predator. I read your column for years. You are an icon outside of the story of you being a true American patriot for all of us and fighting to make the world safer for all of us, including my little girls.
E. Jean Carroll (05:21):
Thank you, Andrea. That's so nice to hear.
Andrea Chalupa (05:24):
Of course.
E. Jean Carroll (05:24):
Thank you.
Andrea Chalupa (05:25):
Absolutely. So I want to ask you, with the Epstein Trump coverage that is going on right now, it is criminal that the mainstream media isn't pointing out in all of their coverage, the extremely important context that Donald Trump was found guilty and legally liable for raping someone. What are your thoughts on being largely left out of this mainstream coverage of Trump and Epstein?
E. Jean Carroll (05:52):
It's not that I'm left out. It's that people don't know it. They do not know it. When it happened, a few people in New York knew it with the New York Times coverage and some. The thing is, Andrea, if your Facebook feed doesn't tell you this, if your Instagram feed doesn't tell you this and the algorithms are not going to deliver it to conservatives, it's just that people do not know it. They just don't know that Donald Trump was held liable for sexual assault. They don't know it. They don't know. They have a vague recollection of something to do with $83 million, but they don't know for what. How about the two dozen women who accused Donald Trump of assault? Two dozen. Two dozen? Why is that left out?
Andrea Chalupa (06:46):
I want to talk about your book because you put us in the moment of, and it's extraordinary. It's just, I couldn't stop reading it. You put us in the moment of going to trial with Donald Trump and his cast of character lawyers, and you describe, I want to say clowns in such a vivid detail. You put us in the moment of going up against these people, your stomach twists. And I have to ask also, what was it like legally going up against Donald Trump and his war chest?
E. Jean Carroll (07:20):
That was the thrill, the exquisite joy of being able to sit 25 feet from Donald Trump and face him for three straight days and tell him exactly what he did was something that millions and millions of people all over the planet just wanted to do. And I got to do it right to his face, right to his face, and it felt really good. It felt well, just imagine how you would feel if you could do that. I mean, just imagine now beforehand I was terrified, of course. And getting ready to do it was really, I didn't think I could do it, but the minute I sat down and there he was this old fat guy, that was it. That was it. Yeah. That was wonderful.
Andrea Chalupa (08:15):
And did he look at you? Did you get any indication of how he might've been feeling facing you in court?
E. Jean Carroll (08:21):
He never ever looked at me when I was testifying. He was sitting right behind me in the courtroom. I mean, I could have reached back and pulled his hair. And we did have a moment where we exchanged a long before the trial started during jury selection. And it was only he and I in the courtroom. The lawyers were speaking with Judge Kaplan in a sidebar, and I turned around and we had a long long look where we got it all done right there in that look. And after that, he never looked at me again. Never looked at me again.
Andrea Chalupa (09:00):
Wow. What do you think he was thinking in that moment.
E. Jean Carroll (09:03):
Andrea?
Andrea Chalupa (09:04):
He doesn't think.
E. Jean Carroll (09:05):
No. Well, he does think he's one of the smartest people. He's probably one of the smartest people alive. Remember, you can't be stupid and win the presidency of the United States twice. He's super smart, but I don't think anybody can guess what he's thinking. I don't know if anybody can do that. He's so unusual and so smart, and the most powerful man in the world. We're not like him. We can't judge what he's thinking. He's so unusual. He's so strange. He's so strange. Think what he's doing. Think of the torture he's causing people. He's taking children away from their mothers and fathers. So how do you think, guess what a man like that is thinking? It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable.
Andrea Chalupa (09:53):
So when you were going through this ordeal, you describe how his lawyer, Alina Haba, who's now the acting US attorney for New Jersey, in a role that she shouldn't be in legally, there's all this legal fight to get her out of that role. And you describe how she asks you to tell her everyone you've slept with. Why do you think she did that?
E. Jean Carroll (10:20):
Well, she wanted to humiliate me and shake me and make me, she lives in the, I don't know, the 15th century where if a woman ever sleeps with anybody, she's a slut. But here's the thing I love talking about my lovers loved it, loved it, loved it.
Andrea Chalupa (10:35):
It comes through your writing. It's so tender.
E. Jean Carroll (10:36):
Loved it. I just loved it. Hey, you want to hear about my lovers? Well they are.
Andrea Chalupa (10:42):
I was like, I started reminiscing about my...
E. Jean Carroll (10:45):
Of course. And you were thinking about your lovers. It was a happy, happy moment. And Alina Habba is very smart. She just didn't know diddly squat about the law. That's all. And he abused her throughout the trial. He said terrible things. She was his defense lawyer. And he would say, stand up. Stand up. Object, object. And then she would stand up and she would have no idea why he told her to stand up. And yet every day she defended him. Well, it turns out she defended him very well because the press conferences, after every day's trial, she would go out and defend him. And that helped win him votes in the election. Alina Habba, she's very good at that. You've heard her talk. She's very good. So yeah, she helped win him the election.
Andrea Chalupa (11:39):
Why do you think these women like Alina Habba and so many, and they're all dolled up like Barbie dolls, why do you think they put themselves through that humiliation to fight for a serial predator like Trump?
E. Jean Carroll (11:54):
They don't believe he did it. They think we're all lying, as simple as that. Also, women tend to like a man who's a powerful man who takes what he wants. I mean, women like that. They like bad boys. So of course they're going to like Trump. He's the baddest of all the bad boys. You don't get badder than that.
Andrea Chalupa (12:18):
Trump.
E. Jean Carroll (12:19):
Well, why do you think, Andrea? Why do you think?
Andrea Chalupa (12:21):
Well, I think it's definitely something primal there and something about de-evolution, big dragging us back.
E. Jean Carroll (12:30):
Right.
Andrea Chalupa (12:30):
Something apocalyptic, if you will. Yeah.
E. Jean Carroll (12:33):
Don't you think it's because he's so very, very rich?
Andrea Chalupa (12:36):
Oh, a hundred percent. It's the money, it's the power. But it really comes down to people selling their souls because he objectives all those around him. He berates his lawyers, abuses and humiliates his lawyers. He treats the people around him like that.
E. Jean Carroll (12:53):
Yeah.
Andrea Chalupa (12:54):
They're all clinging on to get some of the king's favor.
E. Jean Carroll (12:58):
Money.
Andrea Chalupa (12:58):
It's very much the same dynamics of the royal houses that turned Europe into fiefdoms. They, they're trying to bring that back.
E. Jean Carroll (13:07):
Well, they did bring its back. It's back.
Andrea Chalupa (13:10):
It's all about them. Not for long. So I want to ask you, even Trump, you say they don't believe the women, but Trump in his own words, we saw the Hollywood access tape. He loves to grab women by the pussy, and you're rich and famous. They'll even let you do it. And there were reports of when he was running his pageants, he is walking in on these young girls as young as 15 years old, naked changing. So I mean, there's a lot that we've seen him do in his own.
E. Jean Carroll (13:38):
Oh, no, no, yes, no. He grabs women, and I have certainly spoken with many women he has grabbed and he has ruined their lives. Many of them, ruined. I can think of two right now who are in desperate, desperate shape, desperate because they came forward and then they were attacked. So you had the double thing where you have to undergo the attack. Then when you do the right thing and stand up, then you are attacked. And some women who with children lose their jobs, they can't pay 'em. They're running out of money. It's not fun to be without money in America. So the consequences of Trump attacking women goes on and on and on and on and on. And then not being happy with just attacking two dozen. He took away our rights over our own body by appointing three justices to the Supreme Court who took away our rights for over our own bodies. So yeah, it's not, yeah, we have to. And Andrea, the reason why he's in the presidency right now is because women did not vote. They stayed the fuck home. And that is what happened.
(15:06):
A lot of white women voted for him.
(15:08):
We needed to have women get out and vote for Kamala. And they didn't do it.
Andrea Chalupa (15:14):
Yeah, we tried. We had like 12 phone banks here at Gaslit Nation that we organized. We were warning everybody that it would come to this, like they're going to build camps.
E. Jean Carroll (15:23):
I remember, I remember.
Andrea Chalupa (15:24):
They're going to kidnap people.
E. Jean Carroll (15:25):
The gaslit was doing. You were doing it, boy, around the clock. Really. You really given people ways to cope and ways to combat, ways to resist. I'm glad that you're stepped up and are playing a role in this because it is not that we can't turn it around, it's just we have to get people off their lazy asses to start to and begin to turn it around.
Andrea Chalupa (15:50):
Yeah, they have to wake up. What do you think it says about America that so many Americans, obviously mostly white people, white women, white men, uneducated men, voted in such large numbers for a accused serial rapist, predator. 25 women, around 25 women have come forward risking their careers. Like you lost your column at Elle for coming out to stand up to Trump. Why do you think so many Americans voted for Donald Trump twice?
E. Jean Carroll (16:30):
It says that we have been seduced by our phones and by our algorithms and stuff. We didn't get the real story on him. We were sucked psychologically into these stupid phones where we're delivered only the news that we want. And we're just watching movies and we're doing this, and we're no longer educated. And it's really not our fault. It's not our fault. All the guys, it's Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg. Everybody's running the algorithms that we are running on. It's our fault in that we're too lazy to actually go find out the truth. We're just too lazy. I mean, if you had spent five minutes actually doing any research on Trump, you would've been terrified. Bankrupt six times, bankrupt six times, doesn't pay anybody, just do five minutes of research. And you find out what kind of, but no, they're buying it. He went on the right podcasts with the right guys, and he is very persuasive. We are enslaved to our algorithms, unfortunately. What do you think?
Andrea Chalupa (17:46):
Yeah, I just think the misogyny in this country runs so deep, because each time he was running against a woman and enough Americans just felt that.
E. Jean Carroll (17:56):
Oh, well, yeah. You're right. You're right.
Andrea Chalupa (18:00):
And so it's women like you and the other 25 or so women who have stepped forward risking so much to say, Donald Trump sexually harassed me. Donald Trump sexually assaulted me. You write in your book that after the sexual assault by Donald Trump in the dressing room at Bergdorf Goodman, after that rape, you no longer had a romantic life. And I think that's important for people to understand that rape is not just a moment, it's a crime that women live with. Could you talk a bit about that?
E. Jean Carroll (18:33):
Well, I just never had sex again. I never had sex again. And so yeah, it is not the worst crime. Okay. Rape is not the worst crime. Many worst things can happen, but it's a really, really, really horrible time to try to get over the aftermath. That changes everything. It's a difficult thing.
Andrea Chalupa (18:59):
From your experience, navigating the whole legal ups and downs of this, working with a superstar civil rights attorney, Robbie Kaplan, what do you want other people out there to know facing a similar dilemma in their workplace, in their home? What did you learn from going through this that you want to pass on specifically of navigating the legal aspects of such a case?
E. Jean Carroll (19:26):
Andrea, you do not want to know what I learned. You do not want to know that. No woman wants to hear what I learned because I learned you pay a price, you pay a price every single day, you pay a price, and then your the sludge that enters your life is unmanageable. So yeah, I would, right now, this is not the time for anybody to come forward because women are not believed. Not believed. They will always believe the powerful man, because the powerful man has the money. That's what it's about. I would hold off in coming forward. I mean, we know plenty of Epstein victims who are not speaking up. I personally know one who is not coming forward, who's not speaking out. She does not dare come out, does not dare come out. The threats would be unbearable. So we can't tell women anymore to come out. The MeToo is over. It's absolutely over done.
Andrea Chalupa (20:33):
But don't you think this is the time to bring it back? We're learning that Larry Summers was paling around with Epstein and getting advice from Epstein on how to seduce a student at Harvard.
E. Jean Carroll (20:46):
Hey, you want to come out? You want to tell women to come out in this right now and go ahead. You're causing women. It's almost more pain to come out than it is. If I could meet the woman individually and find out if she's strong enough to take it, then I could tell her, okay, you could do it. Go stand up. You're ready. You can go it. But if she's a woman in her thirties with young kids and a job, or if she's independently wealthy, yes. Most women don't even know a lawyer. I mean, most women do not know a lawyer. They don't know a lawyer. How do you even begin? It's astonishing. If a woman is strong and she doesn't give two fucks that she's going to lose everything she's ever had. Please come forward, because that's what will happen?
Andrea Chalupa (21:34):
So there must be networks though of survivors. Robbie Kaplan, the civil rights attorney, she must have access to networks that women who don't have the means, including not knowing where to start. There are survivor networks out there, and I'll link to them in the show notes. So I have, my sister lives in Australia because of what Trump did to her and her family. She stuck her neck out for pointing out the obvious that if Paul Manafort, a long time Kremlin operative was running Trump's campaign, that meant that Kremlin was illegally trying to help Trump come to power.
(22:07):
And she was vindicated, but she paid a price. So now she lives in Australia. So I know the personal price.
E. Jean Carroll (22:12):
How is she, is she happy? Is she...
Andrea Chalupa (22:14):
She's having the time of her life. But I do want to encourage women that you're not alone, but there is always a price.
E. Jean Carroll (22:20):
No, no. You are alone. You are alone. You can't encourage women to say, you're not alone. No, you are alone. Trust me, you're alone. Networks of women don't do diddly squat. You will give sympathy and you have the feeling of camaraderieship and it gets strength together. But if you're going to come out, you are alone. Alone. Yeah.
Andrea Chalupa (22:47):
You won your cases. Trump is obviously going to appeal to the Supreme Court, which he packed. And so do you feel any sense of satisfaction that you've won thus far?
E. Jean Carroll (22:59):
Yeah, yeah. I'm the only Robbie Kaplan, the legal mind of her generation. Robbie and I are the only two women on the face, only two people on the face of the planet who's beat Donald Trump twice. Only people. I am an 82-year-old woman, and I beat Donald Trump. Now, if I can do it, anybody can do it. If I can do it, anybody can do it. You just have to get off your lazy, lazy behind, really, really.
Andrea Chalupa (23:33):
And fight. Even though, as you pointed out earlier, there are going to be consequences, but you can get through it and you can win.
E. Jean Carroll (23:41):
No, I dunno. If you can get through it or you can win, I got through it because I'm old and I had nothing to lose, and I had the greatest attorney of her generation. That is a strange combination. It happened to work. So he can be beat.
Andrea Chalupa (24:03):
He can be beat.
E. Jean Carroll (24:03):
Yeah.
Andrea Chalupa (24:04):
Do you think needs to change in order for this world, our country, to become safer for women to be able to step forward?
E. Jean Carroll (24:12):
Everything needs to change. Everything needs to change everything. Everything needs to change. And women got to get the fuck off their phones and start learning what's going actually on. That's what they got to do. That's the first. It's up to women, of course, as it always is, to start educating ourselves and get off Instagram and get off Facebook and actually read and learn what is going on. Then there'll be fire in the belly. Because right now they're being soothed with skin rituals at night and the lipstick that lasts all day and how they look pretty and cherry instead of the crimson and all that, just we're just soothed into complacency. It is madness. It's madness.
Andrea Chalupa (25:08):
A hundred percent. How did you feel learning that after Trump raped you, he bragged about it to Jeffrey Epstein.
E. Jean Carroll (25:17):
I felt, I felt absolved. I thought, there you go. You may not listen to me, but you will listen to Jeffrey Epstein. And actually, I felt good about it. People said, don't you feel bad that Epstein talked about you? I said, fuck no. I'm glad he said it. He verified that shortly after the attack, he runs into Trump and Trump regales him with the torid ah details about the attack in Bergdorf. They're comparing notes. Listen, Robbie wanted to use it in court, but we couldn't get to hearsay. And she thought that Judge Kaplan, the federal Judge Lewis A Kaplan, would never allow anything so prejudicial as the words Jeffrey Epstein to enter into this trial. The jury just would've, it would've been unfair because that's how much power the words Jeffrey Epstein had. But yeah, I felt, yeah, absolved.
Andrea Chalupa (26:19):
Why do you think Trump has gone to such great lengths to cover up the Epstein Files? What do you think ultimately there might be in there? Are we talking about video of him violently raping underage girls? What ultimately is he afraid of getting out about his 15 years or so friendship with Jeffrey Epstein?
E. Jean Carroll (26:38):
We don't know what Trump's afraid of, but just the fact that he's afraid is delicious. God knows. I'm just worried they're going to destroy the files before they ever get out. And people say no, there'll be copies. Oh, yeah, I don't think so. I think we're living in a dream world. If we think anybody's going to turn over anything, I think they'll be destroyed just like they destroyed. You remember right after J6, they wanted to take everybody's cell phone and get the messages and the head of security said, oops, well, we deleted all the cell phones. Remember that? They took off all the messages, and while we weren't marching in the street over that is amazing. It was all right there. So that's what's going to happen here.
Andrea Chalupa (27:27):
What do you think, though, is ultimately the worst that could come out about Trump and Epstein?
E. Jean Carroll (27:32):
I know people who have told me that Trump was there in the house and that she gave him a blow job. I know that. I know there is a woman out there, but she can't come forward.
Andrea Chalupa (27:49):
And she was underage at the time.
E. Jean Carroll (27:51):
Yes. No, I believe she was 18 at the time. But she was there and so was he. She gave him a blowjob. So we know it's all out there. And they were very good friends, very good friends. Epstein gave a tour to my friend Jill Harth of Mar-a-Largo, read the Vanity Fair piece called Jill Harth, accused Donald Trump of sexual assault. She was the first one to do it. And then her husband made a deal with Trump if she would stop bringing the case. So she did. Anyway, so she's the one who was on the tour when Epstein took, she and her, they were called calendar girls, on a tour of Mar-a-Lago. Epstein took these young girls on a tour of Mar-a-Lago with Trump. Trump was there.
Andrea Chalupa (28:52):
You've been in media for so long, why, and also Les Moonves, you had, he sexually assaulted you or he came on to you?
E. Jean Carroll (29:02):
In an elevator, yeah.
Andrea Chalupa (29:03):
In an elevator. And these are the titans of the media industry who are running coverage of the 2016 election with Hillary Clinton. And then of course Kamala Harris. Not much changed in that election. What are your thoughts on the media landscape today and all of these media giants just bending the knee to Trump?
E. Jean Carroll (29:23):
It's all about the money. It's about nothing else except the money. It's not even misogyny, it's just the money. It has nothing to do with reality as only about the money, as is much in this country. Greedy, greedy, greedy, greedy, greedy. Really greedy, greedy, greedy. It's unbelievable stuff. They got to buy stuff. So I just want to say that when 3.3 million comes in, we're going to spend it on helping women get their rights back.
Andrea Chalupa (29:56):
Absolutely. And so what is the status of the current case? Trump is appealing to the Supreme Court. What is it that he ultimately wants to not have to pay you a dime? Have all the verdicts reversed? What's the latest status?
E. Jean Carroll (30:10):
He's appealed to the Supreme Court, and we'll see how that turns out. And the second case, the 83.3, that is, he's asked for an en banc. From this. We have won every appeal. We have won every argument in every, we've been in four courtrooms. We have won every single argument. Andrea, we will continue to win every single argument. Because he has no case. So I am perfectly happy to make that prediction. We will win.
Andrea Chalupa (30:46):
Absolutely. Has he paid you a dime of what he owes you?
E. Jean Carroll (30:50):
No, but here's the thing, Andrea, in America, if you're in trial against a corporation, a company, an individual, and there are damages awarded, it takes, are you ready for this six to seven years in a normal case to get the money? This is actually par for the course. This is, most people don't go to the Supreme Court, but seeing how this is, so we will add another year and a half on it. But in this country, that's how long lawsuits take. We're actually, Robbie at one point thought we were a little ahead of schedule. The normal cases. No, we we're clipping right along. No, this is the usual abnormal to go to the Supreme Court.
Andrea Chalupa (31:38):
What if something happens to him before then? Because he's not looking too good. He had a mystery MRI. So what if he dies before.
E. Jean Carroll (31:45):
He's not going to die. Mary Trump, my very good friend, knows Donald Trump very well. He's going to live until he's 103. We've got to stop thinking he's sick. He's not sick. He's just like, when you're 79, 80, you have things. You have little things. He has a little episodes in him. Don't worry about it. He will live until he is 103. Take it not from me. Take it from Mary Trump. He's going to live.
Andrea Chalupa (32:17):
That's probably the most depressing thing you've said that in this interview.
E. Jean Carroll (32:22):
No, really? And not from me. It's from Mary Trump's ear, her lips. And we discuss this quite often. No, nope, nope.
Andrea Chalupa (32:33):
So do you have any idea why nothing has been able to take him down? Just a single scandal that he's faced is enough to derail a typical career. What do you think is so exceptional about Donald Trump?
E. Jean Carroll (32:47):
He's the most powerful man in the world. You can't take down the most powerful man in the world. Even anything sexual can't take down the most powerful man in the world, can't do it. Now, if people started losing money, if the markets collapse, for instance, that would topple him. When people start losing money, that's what will do it. Andrea, I hate to tell you, even if it appears at his records that they're going to release, maybe, if they still exist, and it turns out, yes, this young woman did give Donald Trump a blow job at Jeffrey Epstein's joint, it won't take him down. It will move on from that. I promise you what we won't move on from is people start losing their money or they cannot afford a gallon of milk. We started to have a little bit of that with the shutdown, and people were getting uneasy. And people who voted for Trump were feeling a little uneasy about how things were turning out. But it's now been stopped. Well, if that continues, then it's adios Trump. But until then, we should all pray that our portfolios sink, losing money.
Andrea Chalupa (34:08):
Let's be clear about which people need to start losing money. I don't think they care about the gallon of milk. The folks that have to pinch their pennies and start skipping meals and their kids have to start skipping meals. Trump doesn't care about those people. He cares about the markets. So if the markets crash.
E. Jean Carroll (34:28):
Yeah, if the markets crash.
Andrea Chalupa (34:29):
And his Billionaire friends start calling.
E. Jean Carroll (34:32):
The markets could, there was a piece today in the Times. The markets look great, never been better. But that's because they're held up by all the billionaires. It's the small businesses that really are the heart and soul of the markets. They're having trouble with the tariffs. Now, if all the small businesses really start to have a lot of problems with the tariffs, they could crumble and then that would bring down everything. So we'll see. Global warming hasn't stopped people from voting for him. Conspiracy theories haven't stopped people from voting for him. Two dozen women haven't stopped. The Epstein things will blow over once the news comes out. Some girl gave him a blowjob. She was 18. Fuck it. So that'll blow over, but money? Boom! Out.
Andrea Chalupa (35:18):
Right. But don't you think we still need to stay on the Epstein story just for the sake of the thousand or so women out there in getting demanding justice for them, and also naming and shaming, exposing all the other men across society who are carrying such great influence over our lives, whether they're economic advisors for presidents or so on. Shouldn't the Epstein story continue until we at least get some accountability?
E. Jean Carroll (35:45):
Well, yes. I'm not sure what the Senate's going to do on that, but yes, the more we find out about this worm, Jeffrey Epstein and Larry Summers, and the other powerful men that pal around with him, Gates, et cetera, et cetera, the more we'll understand the world. And that is good for us because this is actually hitting people's algorithms. Epstein is hitting the algorithms. So you're right. This is a good way of educating people. Trump will escape from it, but other men may not.
Andrea Chalupa (36:23):
So obviously, you've become such an inspiration for a lot of women out there. What are some messages that you've received from people across the country as you've been fighting this good fight?
E. Jean Carroll (36:37):
Well, I try not to pay any attention to those messages because first of all, I'm not brave. All I have is nerve. That's it. Women shouldn't be sending me messages. They should be sending their senators messages. Women should not be sending me any messages at all. They should be outside marching or going to see personally their congresswoman at her office and raising the roof. That's what women should be doing. And also, we got to get men on board on this, thanking some woman for coming forward, which is actually the thing to do, which is the correct thing to do. Thanking somebody for doing the correct thing. It's nuts. Go outside. Don't have a small conversation with your neighbor who voted for Trump and now feels a little bad about it. And just bring some cookies. Have a really nice conversation. Don't interrupt her. And maybe she can help you understand why she voted for Trump, and then slowly bring her around. That's really how we change things. One little conversation with a sort of a shaky Trump voter.
Andrea Chalupa (37:59):
That's exactly how to do it. We have a fantastic outreach committee here at Gaslit Nation, ran by a listener named Bethany, who every Friday night talks to the other listeners. Listen, they come together and they work on outreach and building bridges.
E. Jean Carroll (38:12):
That's it. That's it. Good old Bethany. Go. Bethany. Wow. You're busy, Andrea. You are getting it done. Yeah.
Andrea Chalupa (38:20):
And so I want to ask you, through your whole journey, what was sustaining you? What was some of the things they were doing to try to intimidate you, harass you, and what did you rely on to get through that?
E. Jean Carroll (38:31):
Absolute total determination. 100%. No matter what, no matter what determined that people know he lied. That was it. That drove me nuts that he kept saying he didn't know me. Didn't matter. It was such a lie. That was the thing drove me nuts that he kept repeating it. So I just kept going until I proved that he is the one who lied. That felt really good, and he has to pay me $83.3 million because he lied. So that felt good. That's what kept me going. That.
Andrea Chalupa (39:13):
And what were some of the tactics that they tried to use to silence you, to intimidate you to back down?
E. Jean Carroll (39:19):
Are you kidding? The power of the White House. That's the power. Well, fuck that power. He lied.
Andrea Chalupa (39:30):
And so I was reading in your book, you provide a lot of graphic detail of the rape. You had to, it was a big court case, and you do a beautiful job interweaving the emotions that we're going through with the dry questioning of this very horrific event. And the word penis is in there a bunch of times, obviously. And they a whole discussion over your historical use of the word penis as somebody in media, an advice columnist, and so on. And I have to ask you, have you seen this research out of the UK that Adolf Hitler may have had a micro penis? And I just wanted to ask how it may have compared to Donald Trump, given that he's got some Hitler tendencies.
E. Jean Carroll (40:12):
Well, I kept thinking of the Saturday Night Live sketch where they said the word penis 40 times, just to say it. And Alina Habba tried to get the word penis into the transcript as often as she could, because she thought that this jury would be appalled that I used the word penis and would find Donald Trump not guilty. It was ridiculous. There are only 400 trillion penises on the planet. They're all different sizes. Get over it. So it's not about the penis, it's about the attack.
Andrea Chalupa (40:48):
Exactly.
E. Jean Carroll (40:48):
Penises can be big or small or whatever, but it's about the attack, and it's about the fact that the woman doesn't want to have anything to do with that penis. That's it. That's it.
Andrea Chalupa (41:04):
So what gives you, with everything going on ,with your court case, getting now dragged to the Supreme Court and the Epstein story being one of the biggest stories in the world, and just so much more that we're discovering around it. And it's not going to go away, even if the Senate pretends like this isn't happening and sticks their head in the sand, or even if they do find their moral courage and pass this Epstein bill, it goes to Trump's desk. He's going to veto it. Obviously, the justice for the Epstein victims, it an all new government, complete government transformation, which we all need to work on. And the larger picture, when you're looking at the massive election we just had where coast to coast, including Mississippi, massive blue tsunami, women, Epstein survivors are showing their faces. They are standing up. So there's a lot of pushback that's happening.
(41:55):
Americans were shocked when Trump came back in, when Elon Musk did a mass purge of our government. When Elon Musk and Doge gleefully mass murdered millions around the world. This is psychopathic like big Hitlers esque Soviet terror. What they're doing, it's economic warfare against the American people. I know so many listeners that lost their jobs in this. They're trying to basically mass star us. So we're weaker and we can't fight back, but we are fighting back. And when you look around and see this, is there anything in all your years and being on the forefront for women's liberation, is there anything at all that you're seeing that gives you hope?
E. Jean Carroll (42:34):
Well, I'm basically an optimist. I am wearing a paperclip. You see that? So this is a sign. You wear this paperclip. Paperclip holds things together. It can be used to pick locks. It can open up handcuffs. You straighten it out. It's a lethal weapon. It can restart your devices. And it's a symbol in the Second World War of Nazi resistance. So I am starting to wear a paperclip just to show my resistance to Trump. And when I see other people wearing a paperclip, I think, well, there's an ally. Okay, we can see right now, we don't have anything to show that we resist Trump. Trump has the MAGA hat, which you can buy in the White House. He has a What do we have? We have nothing. So this right here, the other month or so ago, I was at a stoplight and outside of Hackinsack.
(43:40):
And this kid goes like this to me, and he's in a car right here. And I thought, why is he doing this? And I looked at him, by God, he was wearing a paperclip. So this is how we're doing it. If we can get me wearing a paperclip is nothing, 50 million of us wearing a paperclip, that is an organization, then we can actually take action. We have to recognize there's a lot of us who they've beaten us down and everybody get the fuck off your phones. Go learn something. Go be with your kids. Go to the park, go for a walk. Go play with the dog. Get the fuck off their phones. What are, what was the drugs they were giving you in Fahrenheit? That's what we've got. We're all taking that drug that they were all like, our drug is right here in our hands.
Andrea Chalupa (44:32):
Yeah. Aldus Huxley, Brave New World. They're all on drugs.
E. Jean Carroll (44:35):
Yes. And that's it. So Andrea, you are certainly doing your part. I mean, you've got Gaslit Nation. You're a one woman battalion. Yes. That's good.
Andrea Chalupa (44:47):
Takes one to know one.
E. Jean Carroll (44:48):
Yeah. That's good.
Andrea Chalupa (44:49):
We're going to win. Final question for you. You wrote a biography on Hunter S. Thompson. I was obsessed with him. I wanted to be him. And you became the female version of him as a roving reporter. And when I was in college, I kept trying to book him to come speak at my school, but his agent
E. Jean Carroll (45:06):
Oh, you were Andrea. Before you became Andrea, you were a book of people. I wanted to have him come. Where were you at school?
Andrea Chalupa (45:13):
University of California at Davis.
E. Jean Carroll (45:16):
How? Well that's the revolutionary school.
Andrea Chalupa (45:19):
Yes. We were.
E. Jean Carroll (45:20):
He's actually coming out to UC Davis. Yeah.
Andrea Chalupa (45:23):
And so I tried to get him to come speak at UC Davis. And his agent warned me, do you understand that he has a 50% cancellation rate? He just might not show up. And I was like, I'll take that chance. But the school wouldn't give me the money. We needed to fly him out and do all that, especially with that 50% cancel. And then of course,
E. Jean Carroll (45:43):
He would've been great. He would have loved you.
Andrea Chalupa (45:47):
Could you imagine him covering Trump right now?
E. Jean Carroll (45:49):
Yeah. I think of it many, many times. I think of it many times. It would be glorious. And if Hunter were alive, he would find a way to speak to people that we're not being spoken to that way right now. He would find a way.
Andrea Chalupa (46:06):
We're going to get there. We're going to get there because of women like you. You'll see. When you finally cash your big Trump check, we'll celebrate a much stronger democracy here in America.
E. Jean Carroll (46:16):
The country may topple before then. So let's hope.
Andrea Chalupa (46:21):
Our discussion continues, and you can get access to that by signing up at the Truth Teller level or higher on Patreon. Discounted annual memberships are available, and you can give the gift of membership. Bonus shows invites to exclusive events. Get all shows ad free and more@patreon.com slash That's patreon.com/gaslit. Thank you to everyone who supports the show
(46:45):
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(47:08):
Gaslit Nation is produced by Andrea Chalupa. Our associate producer is Karlyn Daigel. At our founding production manager is Nicholas Torres. If you like what we do, leave us a review on iTunes. It helps us reach more listeners. Original music and Gaslit Nation is composed by David Whitehead, Martin Berg, Nick Barr, Damian Arga, and Karlyn Daigel.Our logo design was generously donated to us by Hamish Smyth, of the Design Firm order. Thank you so much, Hamish.
(47:40):
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