The Oleksandra Matviichuk Interview

In this high-stakes episode, Andrea is joined by Nobel Peace Prize laureate Oleksandra Matviichuk as Putin openly claims alignment with the U.S., and Europe is being forced to, whether it likes it or not, hold the line. 

Matviichuk, leader of the human rights organization Center for Civil Liberties, which was awarded the 2022 Nobel Peace Prize, lays out why the war in Ukraine is not a regional dispute or a diplomatic inconvenience, but a direct clash between civilization vs. a fascist crime spree, one that will determine the future balance of power for Europe and the world. She dismantles the dangerous fiction that Ukraine is a charity case or a drain on European stability. As she makes clear: “Ukraine is not a beneficiary of European security. Ukraine is a provider of European security.”

Our conversation exposes Russia’s war crime playbook, including the mass kidnapping and forced assimilation of Ukrainian children, brainwashing them into soldiers for Putin’s meatgrinder. As Matviichuk puts it: “Every person who wants to shake Putin’s hand must acknowledge that they are shaking hands with the biggest child kidnapper in the world.”

This episode is a five-alarm fire. Europe has the money, the industry, the frozen Russian assets, and the historical memory to stop another Iron Curtain, but only if it abandons wishful thinking and acts. Occupation is not peace, and delay is not diplomacy. Pretending like this will somehow blow over is how democracies fail.

Next week legal scholar Madiba Dennie, author of The Originalism Trap, joins Gaslit Nation to break down how the MAGA Supreme Court emerged from a fringe movement of Lee Atwater’s Southern Strategy, and how we can have an all new Supreme Court, with the help of the power of impeachment. 

Mark your calendar! The Gaslit Nation Holiday Party, complete with hope and holiday sweaters, will be this Monday December 22nd at 4pm ET with fun surprises for our community of listeners. To join the joy, sign up at Patreon.com/Gaslit – discounted annual memberships are available, and you can give the gift of membership. Thank you to everyone who supports the show – we could not make Gaslit Nation without you!

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Andrea Chalupa (00:11):

Welcome to Gaslit Nation, a show about corruption in America and rising autocracy worldwide. I am your host, Andrea Chalupa, a journalist, filmmaker, and the writer and producer of Mr. Jones, the journalistic thriller about Stalin's genocide famine in Ukraine, starring James Norton, Vanessa Kirby and Peter Sarsgaard. It's the film that Kremlin does not want you to see, so be sure to watch it. The history Russia once erased is alive today. That's why the Mr. Jones graphic novel in the shadow of Stalin makes the perfect holiday gift for your local school or library. Because understanding Ukraine's long resistance to Russian genocidal imperialism explains exactly why this fight matters. Now check out the show notes for where to pick up your copy of In the Shadow of Stalin, the future of Ukraine depends on Europe. I know that is a terrifying thought given the centuries have been fighting that have plagued the continent, but Europe has to get it together, unite and fight or Ukraine, and the free world will fall to Russian terrorism, a threat that is growing.

(01:20):

Think of it like the climate crisis of geopolitics. We can't ignore it with wishful thinking and hope it goes away. While Putin has come out and said that the US and Russia are now aligned on Ukraine, Europe by contrast has the economic weight, industrial capacity, frozen Russian assets and growing defense production needed to help Ukraine fight, stabilize its economy and steadily weaken Russia. If Europe sustains military, financial and political support through the war and the decade after Ukraine can emerge secure, sovereign, and integrated into a free Europe, that is the dream of pro-democracy protestors, what they risk their lives for in Ukraine's Euro Madan revolution of dignity. If Europe does not unite and fight for Ukraine, if Russia, for instance, manages to help elect their allies with disinformation, social media campaigns and so on, because remember President Macron in France, he can't run again and La Pen's protege is surging.

(02:35):

Russia will win, not just territory, but the future balance of power on the continent. America under Trump has effectively fallen. Europe is not safe from the same fate of the us. Our window of time is limited. Take nothing we have right now in the world before us for granted. Use every single lever of power we have to force the Democrats, small D Democrats in the global war of democracy versus fascism to wake up before it is too late. Take nothing for granted. Now. Joining us is Nobel Peace prize laureate Oleksandra Matviichuk, a Ukrainian human rights lawyer and head of the Center for Civil Liberties, awarded the Nobel Prize in 2022 for documenting Russian war crimes and defending democracy. For over two decades, she has stood on the front lines of human rights in Ukraine. In this urgent conversation, she explains what world leaders and you, wherever you are, can do right now to help Ukraine in its darkest hour. We are so honored to have you here. So the first question is, how are you doing? How are you holding up in this time?

Oleksandra Matviichuk (04:01):

I'm very grateful for this invitation and the possibility to express what's going on in Ukraine. At current moment I'm in France for Ukrainian season in France. I was invited to provide keynote speech in the theater, the Concord. So let me share how I started this morning in Paris. I started this morning with checking the news. What happened in my native city Kiev, whether or not I still have a home to return are my family. My colleagues are still alive. And this is a daily retail which millions of Ukrainians are doing. Not only those who outside the country, but those who inside the country. Because even if your native city wasn't hit this night, it doesn't mean that the city where your neighbors, your relatives, your families are living wasn't hit this night. So this horror became a part of our daily life. There is no safe place anymore where you can hide from Russian rockets and Russia deliberately hit residential buildings, schools, churches, museums, children build ground and hospitals. Russia increased such attack when President Trump started so-called peace negotiations.

Andrea Chalupa (05:20):

I want to ask specifically about your feeling of the US foreign policy currently under Donald Trump. Vladimir Putin just came out and said that Russia and the United States are aligned. Donald Trump's administration has been pulling money and soldiers, American soldiers out of Europe, increasingly putting greater pressure on Europe to stand up to defend Ukraine. And here in the United States we received the shock that Trump wants to go back to the Monroe doctrine, which says that the western hemisphere falls under the United States, which is a very imperialistic attitude, one that Putin has towards Eastern Europe. What has your work been like in terms of trying to wake up the Trump administration that they need to stand by America's ally Ukraine for the safety of not just our sovereignty, but international law?

Oleksandra Matviichuk (06:20):

Probably I will share with you two thoughts. First, it's obvious that this is not just a war between two states, Russia and Ukraine. This is a war between two systems, authoritarians regime, and democracy. Because with this war, Putin attempts to convince the entire world that freedom, democracy, human rights, it's a fake values because they couldn't protect you during the war. And if Putin succeeds, it'll encourage other authoritarian leaders to do the same. And this is a huge problem, not just for people in Ukraine, not just for people in Syria, in Myanmar, in Sudan, in Venezuela, in Nicaragua, because it means that the whole world order, which is based on UN charter and international law and respect to state sovereignty and availability of state borders will be collapsed. So one example, I live in Kyiv and my native city is constantly being shelled, not just by Russian rockets, but also by Iranian drones.

(07:31):

China helps Russia to avoid sanctions and import technologies critical to our fear. North Korea sent Russia more than a million artillery shells and started to send their troops to Russia. So we are dealing with the formation of entire authoritarian block and all these regimes, they have something in common. They have the same idea what a human being is. They denied people and their rights and freedom, democracy in opposite even not being ideal and far from of being ideal, but still see the people, their rights and freedoms to be the highest values. And there is no way to negotiate it because only existence of free world always provide the spreads to dictators that they will lose their power. And that is why Ukraine, for China, for Iran, for North Korea, it's not a goal. Ukraine for them just a tool how to break this world order and to replace it with its own vision.

(08:34):

And I have a bad news for President Trump. What do I mean? President Trump always emphasize in all his public speeches, in all his posting through social, that it's not his war. He told that this is a war of Biden, this war would never start if he will be a president and so on and so forth. And bad news is that now it's a Trump's war. It's now, it's his war because when he started this peace negotiation in Russia, multiple time just increasing attack to Ukrainian cities, and now we see how witness is openly laughing for all attempts of President Trump to make peace. Now it's his war because if he will not succeed to stop Putin in Ukraine, president Trump will remain in history as a weak president who is weaker than Putin. And this is ridiculous because Russian economy is a very bad shape and probably in the same size of one part of United States, for example, Texas, it'll be ridiculous to be weaker than such country.

Andrea Chalupa (09:47):

Absolutely. And with more pressure falling on the Europeans, half of Europe was once under Russian occupation, the iron curtain once partitioned Europe, so many Europeans lived with Russian occupation, Soviet genocide. What is your message to them to step up and do more

Oleksandra Matviichuk (10:11):

Occupation? Just make human suffering indivisible and occupation is not a peace is the same war, but just another form. And when we speak about Russian occupation, it's not just changing one state flag to another. Russian occupation means in first disappearances, torture, rape, denial of your identity, forcible adoption of your own children, filtration camps and mass graves. This is Russian occupation, but unfortunately only a part of European Union understand it because had this dramatic history. So what's going on on the ground? Putin started large scale war, not just to occupy more part of Ukrainian land. It's a wishful thinking. It's very naive to think that Putin started large scale war and lost hundreds of thousands of soldiers just to occupy Abdi Ka, I'm sorry, it's important cities for Ukraine, but it's very tiny Ukrainian cities. It's not Paris, it's not Washington, it's not Geneva, it's not Berlin.

(11:16):

Majority of Russians can't find this tiny Ukrainian cities and settlements in the map. So it's not the goal of Putin. He's not mad. Putin started large scale war because he want to occupy and destroy the whole Ukraine and move further. He see Ukraine as a breach to Europe. His logic is historical. He dreams about his legacy and he want to forcibly restore Russian empire. And because we was a part of Russian empire for three centuries, we know Russian language pretty well and we can follow the publicly discussing what the next countries they plan to attack Poland or Estonia. So this is what's going on. And my main message to people in European Union is that you are safe only because Ukrainians are still fighting and don't let Russian army to move further. And that is why we have to rethink this support to Ukraine from European Union. Ukraine is not the beneficiary of European Union support. Ukraine is a provider of European union security because if we not be able to stop Putin in Ukraine, he will go further and attack next European country.

Andrea Chalupa (12:32):

Absolutely. Anthony Beaver, one of the top historians, a British historian, one of the top experts on Russian military history, predicts that Russia will be invading the Baltics next. And I wanted to also point out that in 1956 protests led by workers and students in Hungarian, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania and so on, shook the iron curtain and their protest slogan, the rallying cry for freedom was wake up. And I feel like we need to bring that back today to Europe, wake up. And so I wanted to ask you the painful question about the kidnapped children and one of our Gasa Nation listeners wanted to ask you how do we know how many children, the accurate number? Because in the fog of war and the lack of access obviously, what do you believe is the most accurate estimate of how many children were kidnapped by Russia and what exists today to track those children to try to rescue them and bring them home?

Oleksandra Matviichuk (13:39):

Numbers a problem. I will be very honest. Numbers a problem. Ukrainian officials told that it's approximately 20,000 Ukrainian children were illegally deported to Russia. But when we take the research of humanitarian lab of Yale University, they told about 35,000 children. So even more than Ukrainian officials are speaking about. So we don't know the number, we only know that it's a large scale and systematic practice. And that is why international criminal court issued arrest warrants against Vladimir Putin and his child commissioner Maria Lvova-Belova for illegal kidnapping of Ukrainian children in a large amount. And now when I tell that everyone who want to shake Putin's hand must to acknowledge that he or she is shaking hand with the biggest child kidnapper in the world, it's not metra. I just refer to this legal indictment of international criminal court. So numbers are problems and it's very difficult to track each individual stories, especially because we speak about different categories of children, the part of children are children from orphanages or other state institutions. So they have even no relatives who can provide more information about them.

(15:00):

Another categories of children is childrens whose parents were killed by Russians deliberately and then after killing their parents, they just kidnapped them and transferred them to Russia. But still this group, when we speak about children whose parents were killed, they have relatives, they have members of the family, they have friends of the family who want to return them home and struggling to return them home. Unserved categories is children whose parents were arrested by Russians. So they're alive, they're in Russian prison on the torture and sexual abuse almost daily. But even those children are supposed to be adopted by Russian families because this policy of Russia is genocidal. They want to bring up all Ukrainian children as Russians and because it's very easy to destroy children identity.

(15:59):

So they put so much pressure to this and this problem for any sites because Russian legislation provide an opportunity to change the date of birth, the name of child as a place of birth. So when we speak about small kids like two or three years old, even when their parents will survive and will be released from Russian prisons, how their parents can find them, Russia is very big and just in a couple of months or so years it can happen that a small kid will forget the real name and who he or she are and what is not visible for international community. This aspect, Russia pretend to be great, but Russia is very poor. Everyone evaluate and assess Russia from experience in Mosco or San, but it's exception. The vast majority of Russian region are depressive. People live in unbelievable poverty. We see it because when Russian soldiers came to Ukrainian villages, they stole from our houses washing machine carpets or cosmetics closets because they have nothing in their home.

(17:19):

And for them the war is just a way how to earn money and to stole something. So why I mentioned this, because for people from depressive region, it's become a business. When you take Ukrainian child, you start to receive money from Russian budget. So they start to take Ukrainian kids to their families, not because they love kids or they want to help Ukrainian kids, but because they just need money. And it puts Ukrainian children in very vulnerable situation when they appeared in these depressive regions in the family who don't love them, don't care about them, they have no protection against physical abuse, against sexual violence. And it leads to tragic results. I will finish with one example December last year. It was a story of Ukrainian teenager Alexander. He was separated with his sister illegally deported to Russia and put in a Russian family, if I'm not mistaken, in Kandar. And he tried to return home several times, but because he's teenager, his documents were forcibly taken from him. So as the last sign of protest, he has committed suicide. And this is just a tip of iceberg, such kind of stories. I even can't imagine what the horror will reveal when we get the full information.

Andrea Chalupa (18:47):

He committed suicide. And there are also stories of Ukrainian children being sent to North Korea by Russia to be brainwashed and then sent back to Ukraine to fight Ukrainians. Could you talk about that?

Oleksandra Matviichuk (19:07):

Oh, I will talk even more because we speak just about deported children. It's 20,000 to 35,000. We don't know exactly, but we know that we have 1,600,000 Ukrainian children who live under Russian occupation. And lets me tell what does it mean? The identity of these children are arose. They prohibited to speak Ukrainian language. They know that their parents will be arrested if they will show any sign that they belong to Ukrainian culture. They study in Russian textbook and in Russian textbook, Ukraine is not exist as a state at all. So they are brainwashed. Their identity arose and parallel to this, they are severe militarized. It's a total militarization of children starting from the kindergarten for example, their parents forced to regularly give their children for different camps in occupied territories, but also in Russia for example. In Chechnya you mentioned North Korea. It's also one of example.

(20:15):

So what children are doing in such camps, children live in barre, lining up, marching, using military uniform and study how to use weapons. So what's going on? If we call the spade spade, Russia is preparing a new generation of Putin soldiers from this 1,600,000 Ukrainian children. And I'm sorry, it's not just human rights problem, it's a security problem because in age of 14, these children will receive Russian passport. In the age of 18, these children will be forcibly recruited to Russian army. And this Ukrainian children with destroyed identity being severe militarized, they will go to fight and to die in any country which Russia will send them to fight and to die. So if it will not stop this practice, these children, the ones they will become adults, they will come for us.

Andrea Chalupa (21:18):

This is the Holodomor, Stalin's 1933 genocide famine in Ukraine. Repeating again where after the Soviets deliberately mass murdered millions of Ukrainians over time they repopulated the area with Russians. And that's why Donbass, which was the historical nationalistic hotbed of Ukrainian identity, Ukraine's leading thinkers came from Donbass. And then after the Holodomor the 1933 genocide famine, when the Soviets deliberately mass murdered millions, they replaced them over time with Russians. And that is why Donbass is predominantly Russians speaking today. And the Russians are doing this again under Putin and an occupied territory in Ukraine. Putin is putting up statues, billboards of Stalin because it is another Holodomor and people need to wake up because the world failed to stop the first Holodomor or bring justice to the first Holodomor. And they need to wake up now to stop the second one. It is karmic justice for the world. I want to ask you about justice. Obviously this situation with the United States dragging its feet, with Europe being sluggish, it's very infuriating. But what are you seeing in terms of the efforts to bring Russian war criminals to justice?

Oleksandra Matviichuk (22:46):

It's obvious that for current presidential administration in United States, justice is not an issue, but it doesn't stop us. Ukrainians are very stubborn and we know that all this hell, which we now face in Ukraine, it's result of total impunity which Russia enjoyed for decades. Russian troops committed horrible crimes in Chechnya, in Moldova, in Georgia, in Mali, in Libya, in Syria, in other countries of the world. They have never been punished. They believe they can do whatever they want. I personally interviewed hundreds of people who survived Russian captivity from occupied territories. Men and women, they told me how they were beaten, raped, smashed into wooden boxes. The fingers were cut, the nails were turned away, the nails were drilled. So electrically shocked through their genitalia, one young girl told me how she was forced to write with her own blood. Another woman told me how her eye was dragged out with a spoon.

(23:50):

So it's horrible stories and there is no legitimate reason in doing such things. There is no military necessity in it. Russians have done these horrible things only because they could, because they did the same in Chechnya, in Syria, in Mali, in Georgia, and they have never been punished. So it's like a war crime playbook. And when Russia invade next countries, they just use this work from playbook. And that is why we must demonstrate justice to stop it not just for people in Ukraine, but in order to prevent a next Russian attack to the next nation. And yes, we know that according current geopolitical escape, we have a very less chance to see arrest of Vladimir Putin. We saw the red carpet, which was rolling by American soldiers to his feet. But we will get this opportunity we have ever seen ready only our initiative documented more than 91,000 episodes of war crime. This is the most documented war in the human history. So when the time come, we'll present to the courts, not just our tears and our words, but documented evidences.

Andrea Chalupa (25:12):

Under President Biden. A prosecutor in the Department of Justice told me that then Attorney General Merrick Garland was beginning the process of investigating Russian war crimes and that he had a wonderful team assembled for this purpose. Did anything of substance that you're aware of come out of that?

Oleksandra Matviichuk (25:33):

We got support from different international partners with justice related issues. For example, previously United States Finance, the group of advisory consultants, it's top level lawyers and legal professionals who provide support with their advice and with legal strategists. And we are grateful. But what the problem is for current moment, Ukrainian office of general prosecutor documented more than 190,000 criminal proceedings. It's and opened this 190,000 criminal proceedings. I'm sorry. It's a huge amount. Even the best national legal systems can't effectively investigate 190,000 criminal proceedings during the war. And Ukraine doesn't have the best national system. So advice and consultants, it's not solved this problem because if you have a car without petrol, even if you hire Schumacher to be your driver, this car will not move because the car like pet patrol. And now we have a situation that each Ukrainian prosecutor, each Ukrainian detective have to investigate in parallel 2000 cases, not two cases, not 20 cases, but 2000 cases and this enormous burden.

(27:04):

And our prosecutors, they're human, they're not bad mens. They also need to sleep to spend some times at least with family at home. So it's not possible. We need working hands on the ground. And that is why we being Ukrainian human rights lawyers, we are thinking how to ingrain this international support into level of real investigation and justice. This is our task. And when you ask me why we are thinking about this complex justice architecture, because we work with people affected by this war directly, these people went through hell and they need to restore not just their broken lives, broken families, broken vision of the future, but also their broken belief that justice is possible even though delayed in time while this war turns people into the numbers. What we are literally doing, we are returning people their names because people are not numbers. Their numbers only for Russia, for China, for Iran, for North Korea, for democratic countries, every life matters. People are not numbers. We must provide a chance for justice for them.

Andrea Chalupa (28:23):

There was a brilliant Oleh Sentsov play. The name of the play escapes me. It may even be called Numbers, but so Oleh Sentsov is a brilliant filmmaker. He had a rising career as a filmmaker in Crimea. And then he was kidnapped with Russia's invasion of Crimea because he was also a activist with Euromadan, Ukraine's Revolution of Dignity. And he spent many years in a Siberian prison inside Russia where anytime he had to appear in court, he would stand up strong and speak out against the tyranny of the Russian regime. And it was incredibly inspiring and we were part of so many human rights campaigns. I was working with other filmmakers, Agnieszka Holland all over the world. We did a whole red carpet flash mob for him at the world premiere of Mr. Jones at the Berlin Film Festival. And I bring him up because as you were speaking, talking about how all these dictatorships see us as numbers.

(29:17):

Oleh Sentsov's play was a story of a dictatorship where people are numbers, but then a baby is born and they're given a name and it's just an incredible story. People that do not have any direct experience with dictatorship, they don't understand that. They don't understand that concept. So it's important for the human rights activists like you and the artists like Oleh Sentsov to wake up the world and say they see us as numbers as disposable. Stalin had a famous saying about that, saying one death a tragedy, millions is just a statistic and that is how they see us. So the world needs to wake up. And I want to ask you, after the Holocaust, there were groups of people that would hunt down the Nazis, we call them of course, Nazi hunters, even when this war is over because all wars end eventually do you see groups of Ukrainians and their allies hunting down Russian fascists as long as they live.

Oleksandra Matviichuk (30:16):

This war has a genocidal character. Putin openly says there is no Ukrainian nation. There is no Ukrainian language. There is no Ukrainian culture. For 12 years, we are documenting how this works, converted in horrible practice in occupied territories where Russians physically exterminate active local people in local communities, mayors, journalists, children, writers, musicians, teachers, priests, environmentalists, how they ban Ukrainian language and culture, how they destroyed Andro, Ukrainian cultural heritage. How they forcibly taken Ukrainian children to Russia, how they forcibly recruited Ukrainian men to Russian army and how they colonized Ukrainian territories with Russians who were invited from different regions from Russia to go and to live there. So for us, it's obvious we have no other choice. If we stop fighting for justice and stop resisting to Russian aggression, we will cease to exist.

Andrea Chalupa (31:31):

And then so I want to ask, which government agencies inside Ukraine are you working with to get the information you need to document Russian war crimes and try to save the victims?

Oleksandra Matviichuk (31:45):

It's not state institutions. And this is unique feature of Ukraine, which probably I must to explain because people in well-developed democracies, they have luxury. If something existential happened to rely on the state institutions, but I'm sorry we are ancient nation, but very young state, we got restore our independence only three decades ago after the collapse of Soviet Union Empire of evil as one American president, rightly name it. And we got a chance to build effective state institutions only 12 years ago after revolution of dignity, when through Russian president Yanukovich escaped to Russia and authoritarian regime collapsed. So we are still in process. We can't build a sustainable effective state institution for 12 years. People in United States, they are working on this for centuries and they're still not satisfied with the results. They have a lot of criticism. So there is nothing to compare 12 years and centuries to build sustainable state institutions.

(32:57):

So this lead to another pattern in behavior in Ukrainians. If something existential happens, people are not waiting that some rescuers will come and save them or politicians will come and save them. No, it's not our behavior. People in Ukraine self-organize and start to take responsibility for their own shoulders. And this is a source of resilience of Ukrainians. And that's why Russia is still struggling to occupy us while Putin, and let's be honest, United States as well, we're confident that Ukraine has no chance to resist to such enormous opposing power as the Russian military machine is. And our source of resilience is in local democracy, in agency of ordinary people, in self-organization, in grassroots initiative, in this belief of ordinary people that their efforts matter.

Andrea Chalupa (33:56):

We have Gaslit Nation listeners around the world, mostly of course in the US and Canada and across Europe. What would you say to the individuals out there, especially people who are frustrated with their governments in action to help Ukraine? How can the individuals listening, what actions can they take to help Ukraine?

Oleksandra Matviichuk (34:19):

I don't want to be in position to tell people what they must do because I believe that people know better. They know better because they know their environment. They know their skills and knowledge. My main message is we need your help. We urgently need your help because it's very difficult to fight with such enormous opposing power. A lot of my closest people died in this war. I would never wish anyone to go through this experience. And we are fighting for freedom, which have no limitation in national borders, only spread of freedom make our world safer. So please help. This is my main message. And you can find hundreds of methods how to do it. You can write about Ukraine, you can join to some initiatives who provide Ukraine with some humanitarian support. You can urge your government to help Ukraine more invent your own methods.

(35:26):

There are plenty of them, but we need your efforts. The people sometimes underestimate the power of their efforts because they used to thinking through the categories of states and interstates organization and they think, but okay, we speak about war. I'm not a god. I'm human being what I can do. It's very own perception. Ordinary people can do a lot, even more ordinary people can do extra ordinary things. Ordinary people have power much more than can even imagine. Ordinary people create history, not others. I will tell you one story which is very important for me. 12 years ago when millions in Ukraine stood up their voice against Russian corrupt, authoritarian government and peacefully demonstrated just for a chance to build the country where the rights of everybody are protect, government is accountable, judiciaries independent, and police do not be students who are peacefully demonstrating. So Russian government responded with a brutal, massive attack against peaceful demonstrators.

(36:44):

I know what I'm talking about because I was coordinator of civil initiative Euromaidan that time. We brought up thousands of people to provide legal assistance to all persecuted protesters throughout the country. We worked 24 hours per day and every day hundreds of people who were beaten, arrested, tortured, accused, and fabricated criminal cases pastor over year. So it was very dramatic time. And we faced with entire state authoritarian machine because criminal groups, ttu cooperated with police, with prosecutors, with judges. The former president, government security service, majority of parliament were against peaceful protests. They want to liquidate it even physically. And it's very naturally that this feeling of Lord helplessness start to emerge. And in order to help people in Ukraine to overcome this Lord helplessness, Ukrainian artists made a beautiful series of different posters and one of poster, it was poster of a drop with a title. We are drop in an ocean, which means yes, we are human, we are not God. And probably with our individual efforts, we can't stop this horror. But without our individual efforts, nothing will be stopped. And even deeply we can go with this sentence, yes, we are human, we are not God. And our individual efforts modest, but together we are ocean. Together we can change this reality.

Andrea Chalupa (38:28):

Absolutely. And I wanted to ask, which countries across Europe do you feel are the strongest allies of Ukraine? Not just releasing statements but with action?

Oleksandra Matviichuk (38:41):

Probably I will tell not about countries and their leadership. I will tell about people because I know that people in United States support Ukrainian fight for freedom in a higher percentage. I saw the social survey, they are on the right side of the history, the same as people in Canada. So they are with us in our struggle for freedom and human dignity. And we are very grateful for people in United States, in France, in Germany, in Japan, in Australia, in New Zealand, in South Korea, in all other countries who support us. I was in Brazil, I was in South Africa, I was in other countries in different continents. I always faced very warm welcome because when you tell what's going on, not with the geopolitical arguments, but with the stories, with real human stories which you are documented, these stories is very understandable for all people regardless their citizenship, their religion, their political views, their ideology, their color of the skin, and so on and so forth. Because first and foremost, we all humans and only when we support each other, only in that moment we are accurately aware what does it mean to be human?

Andrea Chalupa (40:14):

And final question. How do you, given all that you have endured the loss, the grief, how do you continue? What helps you keep going, especially to confront these horrors, the documentation, the photographs, the videos. What is helping you?

Oleksandra Matviichuk (40:32):

Not easy question, frankly speaking, because I'm a human being and sometimes I feel frustrated and broken because being a professional human rights lawyer, I have no legal tools how to stop the atrocities. And when you speak with the next survivor of sexual violence in this horrible Russian prison, you know that the same horror and sexual violence are going on in more than 150 places of detention, which you identified. And for sure, it's very difficult to be human rights lawyers without any legal tools, how to protect people. But let me express what, keep all of us fine with one story. I interviewed a professor of philosophy, scientist Ihor Kozlovsky, he's from Donetsk, and he was legally arrested in his native town and he spent 700 days in Russian captivity. Before I interviewed hundreds of people, they told me horrible stories. So it was little that could surprise me. But Professor Kozlovsky mentioned detail, which was insignificant for the evidence base.

(41:44):

But this detail strikes me. He described how he was kept in solitary confinement in tiny cell with no window, no cell, no fresh air. It was a basement. And he don't know, is it the night or is it a day? The cell was poorly ventilated. It was difficult for him even to breath. Sewage flows on the dirty floor and through the opening of the sewage, rats was crawling down. And this detail, which impressed me, this well-known professor in my country told me how he gave lectures on philosophy to the rats just to hear a sound of human voice because he was kept alone for months and months. And legally, Ihor Kozlovsky is victim because he was abducted, illegally detained, and kept in unhuman conditions. He was tortured so severely that he had to learn how to walk again. But he told me that all his experience, it's not a reason for him to treat himself and experience himself as a victim. Because the basis of our existence is dignity, not victimhood, and dignity is action. We are not hostages of the circumstances. We're participants of this historical process and dignity provide us bravery and strengths to continue our fight even in unbearable conditions.

Andrea Chalupa (43:26):

You are a hero, not just for Ukraine, but for the world. Thank you for all that you do and Slava Ukraini.

Oleksandra Matviichuk (43:33):

Heroyam Slava.

Andrea Chalupa (43:38):

Our discussion continues and you can get access to that by signing up at the Truth teller level or higher on Patreon. Discounted annual memberships are available and you can give the gift of membership, get bonus shows, invites to exclusive events. All our shows add free and more at patreon.com/gaslit. That's patreon.com/gaslit. Thank you to everyone who supports the show.

(44:01):

To help Ukraine with urgently needed humanitarian aid, join me in donating to Razom for ukraine@razomforukraine.org. To support refugees in conflict zones. Donate to Doctors Without borders@doctorswithoutborders.org. And to protect critically endangered orangutans already under pressure from the palm oil industry. Donate to the Orangutan project@theorangutanproject.org. And check your products for Palm Oil because it's everywhere.

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Gaslit Nation is produced by Andrea Chalupa. Our associate producer is Kairlyn Daigle, and our founding production manager is Nicholas Torres. If you like what we do, please leave us a review on iTunes. It helps us reach more listeners.

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Original music and Gaslit Nation is produced by David Whitehead, Martin Berg, Nick Barr, Damien Arga, and KAirlyn Daigle. Our logo design was generously donated by Hamish Smyth of the New York based firm Order. Thank you so much, Hamish.

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Gaslit Nation would like to thank our supporters at the producer level on Patreon and hire Janz, stri Rasen, Katie Urus, Ann Burino, David East Dawn Ter, Debra Schiff, Diana Gallagher, DL Sinfield, iceberg is Defiant. James D. Leonard, Jared Lombardo, Joe Darcy, Kevin Gannon, Kristen Custer, Larry Gusan, Leah Campbell, Leo Chalupa, Lily Wachowski, Marcus j Trent. Mark. Mark, Nicole, spear, Randall Brewer, Sherry Escobar, Todd, Dan, Milo, and Cuby. Work for Better Prep for Trouble. Ruth and Harnish and Tanya Chalupa, thank you all so much for your support of the show. We could not make Gaslit Nation without you.