How to Overthrow a Dictator
Romania made headlines—and shocked the world—when it annulled a presidential election at the end of last year, citing evidence of foreign interference aimed at supporting a pro-Russian far-right candidate. It was a bold and necessary move, one that stands in stark contrast to what the U.S. should have done—and is now facing the consequences for not doing. But why would Romania take such a decisive stand? The answer lies in its history. Romania’s Moscow-backed dictatorship was among the most brutal behind the Iron Curtain, a painful past that still unites much of the country today.
In this week’s episode, we delve into Romania’s complex history, weaving in a personal story from Andrea’s own family. Her father-in-law, Mihai Victor Serdaru, a medical student in 1956 Bucharest, attempted to lead a student protest in solidarity with the Hungarian Uprising next door. To help make sense of her years of research, Andrea turned to Dr. Corina Snitar, a historian and Lecturer in Central and Eastern European Studies at the University of Glasgow in Scotland. Dr. Snitar is the author of Opposition, Repression, and Cold War: The 1956 Student Movement in Timișoara and contributed the chapter Women’s Experiences of 1956: Student Protesters and Partisans in Romania to the book Women’s Experiences of Repression in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe.
The discussion of how to topple a dictator will continue in this week’s bonus show for our Patreon community, where we’ll dive into a lively book club salon for political scientist Gene Sharp’s revolutionary handbook, From Dictatorship to Democracy. Sharp’s work has inspired liberation movements worldwide, and we’ll explore its urgent lessons for us today. Look for that on Friday.
A huge thank you to everyone who supports the show. We could not make Gaslit Nation without you!
“Just as military officers must understand force structures, tactics, logistics, munitions, the effects of geography, and the like in order to plot military strategy, political defiance planners must understand the nature and strategic principles of nonviolent struggle.”
― Gene Sharp, From Dictatorship to Democracy
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Show Notes:
100 Organizations Supporting Trans People in All 50 States
Discover the organizations working tirelessly to support trans people across the country and combat anti-trans legislation. Read more: https://www.them.us/story/orgs-fighting-back-anti-trans-legislationThe Death and Life of Marsha P. Johnson | Official Trailer [HD] | Netflix
Watch the powerful trailer for The Death and Life of Marsha P. Johnson, a documentary about the life and legacy of a pioneering activist. Watch the trailer on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pADsuuPd79EMAGA Influencer Ashley St. Claire Returns Her Tesla
Ashley St. Claire calls out Elon Musk for being a deadbeat dad as she returns her Tesla. Watch the video: https://x.com/esjesjesj/status/1906741930467225671Elon Musk Says His DOGE Role is Hurting Tesla's Stock Price
In a candid interview, Elon Musk admits that his involvement with DOGE is impacting Tesla's stock price. Read more on CBS News: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-doge-very-expensive-job-tesla-stock-down-wisconsin/Donald Trump Gives DOGE Update as Musk Announces He'll Step Down in May
Elon Musk confirms he’ll step down from his role in May. Details on Newsweek: https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-gives-doge-update-elon-musk-says-hell-step-down-may-2053368Trump Won’t Rule Out a Third Term, Says 'There Are Methods'
Donald Trump hints at the possibility of a third term in the White House, stating there are ways to make it happen. Read more on NBC News: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-third-term-white-house-methods-rcna198752Dr. Corina Snitar’s Bio
Learn more about Dr. Corina Snitar, a respected scholar and educator in social and political studies. Read her bio: https://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/staff/corinasnitar/TeslaTakeDown.com
Join the Tesla protest here! It’s fun and easy. Learn more at TeslaTakeDown.comDOGE Hitler Youth
DOGE Teen owns ‘Tesla.Sexy LLC’ and worked at a startup that has hired convicted hackers. Experts question whether Edward Coristine, a DOGE staffer who has gone by “Big Balls” online, would pass the background check typically required for access to sensitive U.S. government systems. Read more on Wired: https://www.wired.com/story/edward-coristine-tesla-sexy-path-networks-doge/Introducing ArchiveGate: Trump’s Dangerous Attack on the National Archives
Listen to the episode: https://gaslitnation.libsyn.com/introducing-archivegate-trumps-dangerous-attack-on-the-national-archivesMAGA Reddit Reacts to Trump Seeking a Third Term
https://www.reddit.com/r/Conservative/comments/1jnkvv0/trump_teases_running_for_a_third_term_not_joking/
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TRANSCRIPT
Intro (00:00:01):
I want to say it was the 4th of July. We were going to meet at midnight, but she never showed up.
(00:00:09):
She was in danger.
(00:00:09):
I was there when they pulled her up. Marsha was so full of life.
(00:00:15):
Marsha P Johnson was the Rosa Parks of the LGBT movement.
(00:00:19):
I want my gay rights now.
(00:00:23):
Her case has been cold for 25 years. I'm calling from the Anti-Violence Project here in New York City. I want to try to give Marsha justice. Street people and the drag queens were the vanguard of the movement. Stonewall. Marsha and I fought the cops off. We were in the streets turning over cars. The movement started the next day. Marsha was famous all around the world, but even famous people cases go cold.
(00:00:55):
This is her case. It's hard for me to believe that she would commit suicide. A lot of people think it was a murder. Marcia had a fear about the mafia. Something's wrong. We keep on running into a brick wall.
(00:01:10):
You a private investigator.
(00:01:11):
No
(00:01:11):
Don't play detective yourself. All right. Leave this to the people that should handle it.
(00:01:15):
We want justice here to find out who the hell murdered.
(00:01:23):
I have been beaten. I have been thrown in jail. I have lost my job for gay Liberation. Revolution Now!
(00:01:35):
I don't bite my tongue for nobody.
(00:01:41):
Which can get you murdered you know.
(00:01:45):
The police just brush it off.
(00:01:47):
I'll get to the bottom of it. There's a massive number of trans women who have been murdered and they're yelling out from their graves for justice.
Andrea Chalupa (00:02:12):
Welcome to Gaslit Nation. I am your host, Andrea Chalupa, a journalist and filmmaker and the writer and producer of the journalistic thriller, Mr. Jones, about Stalin's genocide famine in Ukraine. The film the Kremlin doesn't want you to see, so be sure to watch it. There's a lot happening. As always, this episode is going to look to history on how dictatorships lose power specifically to Romania, which did at the end of last year what the United States should have done. Romania annulled an election over intelligence, reports of foreign interference, helping a candidate come out of nowhere and win in the first round of voting. In December, 2024, Romania's Constitutional Court invalidated the first round of the presidential election following evidence of cyber attacks and foreign influence. Sound familiar? The ruling was a historic one for Romania and for all of Europe. We will continue the discussion on toppling dictators in this week's bonus show for our Patreon community with our energizing book club discussion on Jean Sharpe's Revolution Handbook from Dictatorship to Democracy, which inspired liberation movements around the world.
(00:03:46):
To join our Patreon community where you get to shape the conversation and help support the show, sign up for a membership@patreon.com slash gast. Discounted annual memberships are available. That's patreon.com/gast. Thank you to everyone who supports the show. Now. Our opening clip was the trailer for the death and life of Marsha p Johnson. That's a documentary about the iconic trans woman who was at the Stonewall Uprising, which took place from June 28 to July 3rd, 1969. This pivotal moment in lgbtq plus history came in response to a police raid at the Stonewall Inn in Greenwich Village, New York City. Marsha, a fearless activist and drag queen would tragically be found dead in the Hudson River in 1992, and the circumstances surrounding her death remain a mystery. You can watch the trailer for that documentary by visiting the show notes for this week's episode. Again, it's called The Death and Life of Marcia p Johnson.
(00:05:07):
The Stonewall Riots were an act of self-defense, a fight for survival led by trans people, drag queens and other lgbtq plus folks who refused to be silenced. Their bravery paved the way for milestones like Sarah McBride becoming the first openly trans person elected to the US Congress and she will not be. The last March 31st was transgender Visibility Day and every year, every March 31st is transgender visibility day. A reminder that trans people have always existed and will always exist. It is essential that we pass and enforce enforce laws to protect them, especially trans children from the harm caused by the far right who relentlessly scapegoat and target them. Protecting trans rights is a common sense and urgent human rights issue just as marriage equality once was. Now more than ever we must come together to defend the trans community. Now more than ever, we must come together to defend the trans community, speak out, refuse to be complicit in their oppression.
(00:06:27):
Thank you to every trans person who shows this tired world, the courage to live authentically you. Inspire us all for a list of 100 organizations in all 50 states, supporting trans people that you can help amplify on social media and donate to a list submitted by a Gaslit Nation listener, head to the show notes. Now we're going to kick off with a segment we like to call MAGA Regrets, starting with this clip of MAGA influencer Ashley St. Claire joining countless Americans across the union and returning her Tesla. She's given in her Tesla folks, and as she's doing so she's calling out Nazi Elon Musk for being a deadbeat dad. That's right. One of his a hundred kids includes Ashley St. Claire's kid, and he's doing what that Nazi likes to do, being a terrible person. Let's listen now.
Ashley St. Claire (00:07:30):
I'm selling it because I need to make up for the 60% cut that Elon made to our son childhood.
Interviewer (00:07:38):
Why do you think that he did that?
Ashley St. Claire (00:07:41):
That's a great question for him.
Interviewer (00:07:44):
It feels like he was sort negative against you in some way.
Ashley St. Claire (00:07:48):
Yeah, that's his motus operandi that woman speak out.
Interviewer (00:07:53):
When was the last time that you spoke to him or tried to speak to
Andrea Chalupa (00:07:55):
Him? February 13th,
Interviewer (00:07:59):
But he's just not responding to you at all.
Andrea Chalupa (00:08:00):
All in related news, Elon Musk confirmed he's stepping back from Doge by the end of May, after wreaking havoc on our government, purging it on a massive Nazi scale and endangering countless lives worldwide. He's employed his Hitler youth of Doge, which includes reckless criminal boys with access to some of the most sensitive data in our government, including social security. I will link again to the deep dive investigations into the Doge Hitler youth because these are criminals. It's like the new generation of Roger Stones and Paul Manaos coming up. These people, these boys are dangerous and they're not just going to be here for now. They've got a whole dark future ahead of them, of this bullshit, and we have to know their names, know their wrap sheets now, because I'm telling you Peter Thiel's movement is going to pump a lot of money into keeping them around for the long haul.
(00:09:04):
We must keep these Tesla protests going as strong as we can as long as MAGA continues to threaten the world, whether they're in power or not. Musk played a major role in bringing Trump to power. He's turned Twitter our public square into a massive, the world's largest platform of Russian and Chinese disinformation. But remember, the people have the power and we will keep building our movement, driving down Tesla stock and continuing to warn the world. We're not just damaging a brand to damage a brand. We're telling the world don't put money into this Nazi's pockets. We're warning the world that there's better safer products out there and the world is listening. Tesla's competitors, they're having a grand old time now, so let's keep all this up and drive business away from Tesla and to companies that actually deserve it. And Musk can claim he's stepping back, which I don't believe, I don't believe at all.
(00:10:05):
I think he'll always be in the mix. He can claim it all he wants, but it's over for him and it's over For Tesla to join a Tesla protest near you, head to Tesla, take down.com, and if it's just you and a sign, just stand out there and shine bright. You're going to get a lot of support, solidarity of people passing by, and if any Nazi wants to come and start anything, just smile through it, shine your light, and just be your own gorgeous self. That's what the world needs right now, and every little thing we do now matters. Every little thing we do now matters. So get out there and get your headphones on, listen to music, meet other folks at protests and just we need you. Remember, we are sand in their gears. The whole MAGA movement, as we've reported on the show as NPR reported, 3.5 million votes were canceled in the 2024 election.
(00:10:57):
America has a gerrymandering crisis that no western industrialized nation faces. We had Russia calling in bomb threats. We had Russia and China coming out, so much disinformation to help Trump. We had Elon Musk openly bribing voters in 2024 like he's doing now with the Wisconsin Supreme Court race. They threw everything they possibly can at this election, so I don't think they came to power legally just like they did it in 2016, and that doesn't make me an election denni. That makes me someone that refuses to ignore that we are a frog and a pot of boiling water, and we have been for decades. As Republicans chipped away at our voting rights and consolidated power with Christian nationalism and now Russia to try to overthrow our democracy. Trump literally incited a violent coup against American democracy with January, 2021. So no, I do not think they came to power legally, and I think they're going to try to do what they can to stay in power illegally.
(00:12:01):
Which brings us to the big story that everyone's talking about, that Trump is going around saying that he is entitled to a third term as President, which of course is very unconstitutional. As we've warned forever, especially in our recent episode covering Archive Gate Trump's purge of the National Archives. The agency overseeing electoral college is part of a dangerous strategy to rig the voting system and clinging to power. I will link to that in the show notes if you haven't heard it yet. This isn't just trolling by him like any aspiring dictator, Trump clearly intends to remain in power for as long as possible, even if it means subverting democracy again to do so. Now, let's check in with a MAGA community on Reddit to see what they think about the big news that Trump wants to seek a third term. I'll read some of their comments now.
(00:13:00):
One writes, can we get through year one without any more bullshit? We have more important things to worry about. Another rights, he's really got to stop with this shit. I mean, he's probably trolling, but just saying this kind of thing is harmful to the conservative movement. It's like when he said something about suspending the constitution once and then another chimes in. No thank you. The 22nd Amendment exists for a reason. You're done after two, no matter what you accomplish or who you are. We have plenty of leaders who can step into the role in 2028 and another points out, yes, one thing everyone can agree on is term limits and another rights. It gets tiresome trying to defend all his antics. I would love nothing more than to be able to just say to the left, Hey, remember when you went on about democracy and project 2025 and dictator and all that?
(00:14:01):
You were wrong about all of it. It's already hard enough to win the midterms without these ridiculous statements and the MAGA regrets. Comments like that? Go on and on and on, and I'll link to that Reddit in the show notes so you can see for yourself. Speaking of elections, we are recording today, April 1st. We're seeing some important races obviously happening today, including two house elections in Florida to replace group chat enthusiast Mike Wal and accused child trafficker Matt Gaetz. There's also the Wisconsin Supreme Court race, which Elon Musk has been openly trying to buy, making a big spectacle of handing giant checks to voters like he's fascist barker, and the price is right by the time you listen to this episode. The results will be in offering us important insights into the mood across this country. These elections will tell us a lot about the state of free and fair democracy and whether another big blue wave might stand a chance in 2026.
(00:15:15):
And so we will circle back to these election results and future episodes as they relate to the bigger picture, helping us stay grounded amid the chaos and noise that MAGA deliberately floods the zone with, as Steve Bannon likes to say, their flood in the zone with shit. Another term for it is resilience targeting. So stay resilient, stay grounded, stay on gaslit with us. We're going to get through this together this week. I'm thrilled to be joined by a very special guest, Dr. Corina Snitar, a historian and lecturer in Central and Eastern European studies at the University of Glasgow in Scotland. Dr. Snitar is the author of Opposition, repression and Cold War, the 1956 Student Movement and TE Mesora and contributed the chapter Women's experiences of 1956, student protestors and partisans in Romania to the book, women's Experiences of Oppression in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe will include a link to our full bio in the show notes.
(00:16:26):
At the time of our interview, Dr. Snitar was in Bucharest, Romania, working in the archives on a new project. I invited Dr. Snitar to join me on the show to help me make sense of the years of research I've devoted to understanding the student- and union-led uprisings of 1956, movements that struck a significant blow to the Iron Curtain exposing the brutality of the Soviet regime. And this was important because this was just a few years after Stalin's death and Khrushchev gave some speech saying, Stalin's dead. Lenin couldn't stand him. The Cultist Stalin was awful. Let's not ever do that again. And there was some false hope that things might change, but it was all just che cynically consolidating power and gaslighting. As we'll discuss in this conversation, you'll hear what ends up happening when the people were rising up across Eastern block in 1956 and showing the world, making obviously global headlines, changing history, showing the world the true face of Moscow brutality, Soviet brutality.
(00:17:30):
While working on my film, Mr. Jones, over the course of several years, I found myself taking an unexpected detour in 2011, living with my soon to-be in-laws in Paris. I had come to the city to meet with film producers and planned my upcoming wedding to my soon to-be husband. During this time, however, his father, Michelle, a renowned neurologist, began to experience a sharp decline in his health. I spent some afternoons by his side listening intently as he shared stories of his youth as a 20-year-old medical student in Ret Michelle or Mihai Victor Sru, as he's known in Romania, had dared to challenge the brutal Stalinist regime behind the Iron Curtain. His incredible experiences and courage in the face of such oppression would become an unexpected profound part of my own journey of understanding how authoritarianism works and how to resist it.
(00:18:35):
And just to share how significant this was growing up, my husband said that his dad never wanted to talk about what happened to him in the six years he spent as a political prisoner in communist Romania, one of the most brutal regimes of all the regimes behind Iron Curtain. And his dad just obviously understandably never wanted to talk about it. There'd be little moments where a movie was on TV and there'd be prisoners on TV, and they'd have shackles around their feet. His father couldn't help himself, and by pointing out, that's not what shackles actually look like, they actually are more like this. And you talk about the mechanics of shackles around someone's ankle. Very rarely he ever ever mentioned it. It was very clear that they did not talk about that. And then I came in to his life and he was living with me, a journalist, a historian, a screenwriter, and I just got pulled into his world and spending these afternoons with him, and somehow the stories just were flowing out, and I have so much more to say about this.
(00:19:41):
I am just so grateful that I had these experiences and I'm so grateful to all the countless people around the world, some whose names we know, some whose stories we've collected, and countless unfortunately, whose names will never know, who resisted this inhumanity in such significant ways and in ensuring that freedom would prevail. And now for that, let's learn about this important time so we can gather our own courage, our own lessons for what we face here in the world today in this other painful crossroads between fascism versus democracy. And so important way to help us fight for the future is to understand the past. And for that, welcome to Gaslit Nation, Dr. Karina Neetar. I had heard stories from my father-in-law, HAI Victor before he passed away. I was able to miraculously get him to open up to me. I mean, he was stuck living with me, a journalist I, and I heard from him that he and his friends at the medical school in 1956, Bucharest were listening to the Hungarian uprising on Pirate Radio. They decided to take a stand as well. They created a list of demands using the communist regime's own language, basically against them saying, Hey, we're a land of egalitarian values in agriculture. Where's the bread? And the night before they're about to march, he said, there's about a dozen or so secure ate agents came to his dorm room and marched him out, put him on a fake trial. The judge tried to say, Hey, he's just a boy. He's an idiot. He didn't know what he is doing.
(00:21:33):
It was sentenced to several years in a communist prison, and the prison quickly filled with other students and keep themselves from losing their minds. They began sharing their knowledge. He was learning French and English and Morse code and astronomy and literature and public speaking from the other prisoners who are all students like him. And the torture was so horrific by the guards because he was told upon entry in this prison, one of the guards said to him, you've come here to die. The prison was so awful that he continued his medical studies as the doctor in the prison treating torture wounds. The last decade or so, I was digging into the what was available online. I see him on Wikipedia, both English and Romania. Does the name Mihi Victor Seru mean anything to you in your research?
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:22:24):
Yes. When I started my research, there was only one article published by Granville on the 1956 student movement in Micra. Of course, there were some interviews taken after the fall of communist to the former participants in the student movement regarding Eucharist. There was a book published by researchers of the S Academy Foundation, and I of course read the book to see the background. What can I tell you is that the students in Bucharest started to mobilize themselves for a protest after what was happening in Tim, so not before. So it was on, if I remember correctly, it was on the end of October, but they wanted to organize a protest in University Square on the 3rd of November. They couldn't do anything because in the day of the scheduled protest, the military troops were waiting for them there. So they were afraid to not be tested. So they run away about S Yes.
(00:23:48):
So the first who raised this question, if there is an opportunity to organize a protest where students of the medical schools in Bucharest, there was another center of students who wanted to do something, of course, influenced by what they heard from the broadcast of radio Free Europe, mostly about what was happening those days in Budapest, there were students of philology, but they were more concerned with the problem of the curricula burden by Russian language and the history of the Soviet Union and so on. And they wanted to raise this issue in RAAs. Well, as far as I know, I don't know too many details, but as far as I know, students in buchar spread the word to other centers, other faculties. They wanted to organize this march, as you've said, but they couldn't, those who were caught organizing something against the regime were immediately confined in secret prison.
(00:25:02):
The others who were there, because they found out about all these discussions from their colleagues, they were sent to probably Incar, to Gila Prison in Tim. The students, the participants, because there were 2000 students in the seminar, participated to the meeting. They were confined, two former units, military units, one in be, which is at 30 kilometers out of ra, former Soviet unit. And I had pictures. I went there and female students who were confined in RA on lip, there was a unit, also military unit there, but in Bucharest, they were sent directly to the prison I think.
Andrea Chalupa (00:25:59):
He was also sent to Gherla
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:26:01):
When he received his sentence, he was sent to Gherla and then enforced. No, in labor camp, no, in,
Andrea Chalupa (00:26:11):
He was resisting the guards in prison. He was going on a hunger strike. He was put in a solitary confinement. They had to force feed him. It was this idea that I learned from him that he was more powerful, dead than alive because he had such an attachment to the other prisoners. They became quite close in prison as the doctor helping them. It would've been very dangerous for the guards to kill basically the doctor of all the other prisoners. And so they had to keep him alive. And so he knew that, and he was trying to go on a hunger strike to try to protest for a lawyer to come from the outside world and look at how they were being treated and the conditions they were forced to live in. He said the lawyer came, he took a meeting with the lawyer, but nothing came of it, of course. And because of his stubbornness, which my husband inherited from him because of his stubbornness, his sentence was extended and he was sent to solitary confinement on the Romanian step in the middle of nowhere.
(00:27:14):
And that's where he took up gardening. He got really into gardening while he was sentenced to basically die out there on the step alone. His story's extraordinary to me, but he is somebody who's known and remembered and was in the core group. And just to set the stage for people how significant this was trying to resist the Stalinist Communist regime 56 creature gave a shocking speech in February, 1956, known as the secret speech where he said to all the communist leaders assembled in Moscow, Hey, everybody, Stalin's an asshole. We're not going to do the cult of Stalin anymore. He was a horrible person. The Cultist Stalin is now over and we're going to have brotherhood of nations in the Soviet Union. And this was so shocking that some of these communist leaders killed themselves. They died by suicide because it was this new reality caving in on them.
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:28:14):
Exactly, yeah.
Andrea Chalupa (00:28:15):
But the dictator of Romania, Gheorghiu-Dej, he was like, I actually enjoy Stalinism. And so he was the roughest of all those dictators behind the Iron Curtain, and
(00:28:29):
The Securitate had one of the highest ratios of secret police to citizen in Romania. And not only that, in the lead up to 1956, they had this horrific prison experiment called the Pasti. This makes all other mind control experiments look like Disney World. What these guards did in this prison, the 1940s, early 1950s, the secret police in Romania carried out vicious mind control experiments on political prisoners, many of them students where they would statistically force them to torture each other. You had friends, brothers, relatives, forced to torture each other in order to break the human spirit and force them to become obedient. And primitive people lost their minds, several died. It is horrific by any standard. What happened in Thei prison is one of the greatest crimes against humanity that the world does not know about today. And against this backdrop of this dystopian hellscape that was Romania after the Soviet takeover, again, one of the most brutal regimes, my father-in-law as a young medical student, 20 years old, a baby, 20 years old, dared to rise up and say, Hey guys, let's get a plan together and revolt. And I cannot believe this man survived what he went through.
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:30:03):
So 1956, the things change a little bit because the Securitate recruited officers from universities with the university background. I was lucky enough to interview two out of three organizers of the protests in, and they told me that they were not bitter at all in prison. I mean, they have no motive to no reason to lie to me, no, because if they want to portray themselves as now courageous heroes, and so probably they would have told me otherwise. But now they were only interrogated, cross interrogated, I mean, would face to face with other convicts and so on, but they were not. The problem in prisons at that time in prison was of course salvation, so poor food supply and so on. But this was in old Romania at that time because the economy was in chaos and agriculture as well. So the food supply was cars at the time.
(00:31:19):
And what happened to them, the worst period for their confinement was in labor camps because they were, as you said, 20 years. Students are young students, they didn't know how to do agricultural work. They were forced to work on a dam in a grandchild of Illa and read harvest. So they're not used to the hard work at that time. And of course, mosquitoes and the accommodation. So they were accommodated in ship, former ship stables and so on. They were confined to GI Lab prison until late 1959. And another thing, the guards and their political leaders who are interested to keep them alive and healthy for work in the labor camps. That's why the prisons were not so bad as in pit. As you said, the prison before, I think in 1960, some of them were released from prisons because your signed an international agreement with the United States, with France and Britain, and these countries ask for the release of political convicts in exchange of technological trade. Some of them were confined after that received forced residence as you, I think told me. S in uba, I think still is, was a small village in Gala County. I found out reading memoirs of Alba. I found his name in the BA's memoirs. They met there somehow.
Andrea Chalupa (00:33:29):
My father-in-law in his memoirs, what's the man's name?
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:33:32):
Ordel Bagu
Andrea Chalupa (00:33:32):
Who is Bagu.
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:33:35):
Bagu, was one of the organizers of the student protesting team.
Andrea Chalupa (00:33:41):
I see, okay.
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:33:42):
Yes. I couldn't interview him because unfortunately he died a year before I started my PhD, I interviewed Stanka and Kayo who were also organizers of the protest.
Andrea Chalupa (00:33:58):
Could you speak a little bit about how the Soviets took over Romania in the first place? From what I understand, Churchill, Stalin, of course, FDR had some sort of secret agreement on how they were going to carve up.
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:34:13):
Yeah, the percentage agreement, yes, between Churchill and Stalin in mosque, yes. The famous percentage agreement, 90% of Romania to the Soviets, the Communist Party in Romania was set up by the Soviets from the start. It
Andrea Chalupa (00:34:31):
Wasn't an organic movement. It wasn't like people, the workers, the unions, the people rising up and wanting a communist utopia.
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:34:39):
No, no, no, no, not at all. The communist party in Romania was formed by splitting the socialist party in many other country in 1921. So in 1921, the communist party in Romania was set up and finals and supported by the commun term at that time and remain the Romania communists were a little bit free to choose their own pathway. But under Stalin, as in other countries, not only Romania, the communist party was put under pressure and forced to behave in a certain way. Stalin was not content of the results, but that time, he, in 19 30, 36, 37, the Romania communists had to promote this idea that BA is A is independent country and to pull out base from Romania. And the results were not satisfactory for Stalin. So he created another communist party outside Romania because this didn't result in anything concrete in terms of declaring independent ba an independent country. So he changed his mind. Then in 1978, I think he reconstructed the Communist Party in Romania, mostly with workers, as you said. And Jorge Jgi was one and 50 workers. So Jgi DE was raised and supported directly by Stalin to gain the power after the war.
Andrea Chalupa (00:36:33):
Stalin basically handpicked his dictator to run Romania on his behalf.
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:36:37):
Exactly, yes. Because the others in the leadership in the Romania leadership were former K of the who fought in the Spanish Civil War, for instance, or were trained in Moscow as an poker. Then she also a former cadro of the, so they all were, as you said, picked up by style and promoted the highest level. After the war.
Andrea Chalupa (00:37:13):
They were used and abused. Some of them were pushed out and discarded while Stalin's chosen successor could consolidate power and turn it into a prison the whole country, winter, 1947, was there violent upheaval in the streets.
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:37:28):
There was a huge march in Bucharest in support of King Michael in 1947, but the communists ambushed the protestor, the participants in this march and intimidated them. And not only them, but also the traditional political parties like National Peasant Party and the Liberal Party. Their offices were closed, and the leaders of this traditional party were imprisoned the Communist Party thing, the power to be the only party in power.
Andrea Chalupa (00:38:10):
So Churchill and Stalin secretly divided Europe together, which is Churchill's regrets reportedly, or at least he knew that it would come back to haunt his legacy. So he claimed it was a regret and a reminder for our listeners, we got World War II in the first place because Stalin and his then Ally Hitler started World War II by secretly carving up Europe together in the Nazi Soviet Pact, the Germans invaded Poland first followed by the Soviets, and the rest is history, as they say. And the only reason why Stalin flipped to the side of the Allies is because Hitler was a madman, just like Stalin and Hitler turned on his buddy. And so here we are, and Stalin gets rewarded for starting World War II by getting the half of Europe that he always wanted, that he started that Nazi Soviet Pact for in the first place.
(00:39:02):
It was all very infuriating. I know he puts up the Iron Curtain, Romania falls behind the Iron Curtain, and 10 years after that, in 1956, there start to become rumblings across Soviet occupied countries. Union workers rise up in Poland, workers union students rise up in Czechoslovakia in Hungary, most famously the 1956 Hungarian uprising. That started as a solidarity march for the unions over in Poland, and people took to the streets in Budapest, and they were reading poetry. It began with poetry readings on the street to Molotov cocktails, coloring out tanks of Soviet soldiers. And it was a thing of beauty. And the whole world gasped. And the Hungarian Freedom Fighter made it on the front page of Time Magazine. And at the same time in the us, Martin Luther King was on the scene.
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:39:58):
Hmhmm
Andrea Chalupa (00:39:58):
Had just led the Montgomery Bus boycott. The civil rights movement was also capturing the world's attention. So on the global stage, black Americans were rising up with their Jewish and white allies. And then in Europe you had all these students and union workers and artists of all kinds rising up all across behind the Iron Curtain. So it really felt like a time that the tyrants had to be careful, the people were coming for them, and it was such a thing of beauty. Unfortunately, what ends up happening is that Khrushchev sent in a thousand Russian tanks to crush the uprising and Hungary, because Khrushchev was always Stalin's guy, and he only gave that speech to try to consolidate his own power and present his new regime. Stalin's dead. You all follow me, but really is the same old, for the most part, yes, there was some reforms, but some of it was gaslighting.
(00:40:53):
So Khrushchev crushes the Hungarian uprising by setting in a thousand tanks. That's where we get the term tanky from. Tanky is what we call an idiot on the far left or far right, that is Proso. They don't know history or they refuse to accept facts. If you want to know why we say tanky, it comes from the tanks that Khrushchev sent in to crush the 1956 Hungarian uprising. Now, I want to ask you the hope of 1956 dies with the mass arrests all across the Eastern block, but then 30 years later, we get the collapse of the Soviet Union with a new wave of what seeds do you think were planted in 1956 that may have helped three decades later?
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:41:40):
Yes, in Romania there was a problem because the power of the secret services had been enforced after 1956. And in 1958 when the Soviets decided to withdraw the Red Army troops from Romania, the regime became harsher. That's why probably we cannot talk about legacy of 1956 in Romania until 1989. So there was mostly a strike of workers in mine, workers in 90 seventies, but they claims were related to their work conditions and so on and income. There were not political claims. Even in 1956, the Romanian students didn't ask for a change of the regime. They asked for an improvement. They asked for an economic plan, adapted to the local conditions, not mirroring the Soviet economic plan, but they didn't ask, like in Hungary, for instance, multi or free elections, they still were believed in the communist regime. Their feeling was that the leaders at the highest level didn't know what was happening in the country, and they wanted to inform the leaders.
(00:43:25):
That's why they organized the meeting, protest meeting. I think that third Stanka and Kai participated in 1989 revolution at their workplace, so in their factories trying to organize free elections and so on. But until then, they were not involved in any kind of other protests or movement against the regime. And I can tell you why, because from time to time, all these former convicts, even after their release, they were asked to come to the Maia or to the Secret Station, but mostly means and interrogated as a form of intimidation. Another thing, after they released from prison, they had to sign a declaration that they would not divulge anything that happened them in prisons or in labor camps, otherwise they would be arrested again. And they all were afraid to not be arrested again. The conditions were harsh for this young students at the time in the labor camp. And after that, their life were shaped by all that happened to them in 1956. They couldn't follow their dreams anymore. Now they had to work to take unskilled work. They're not hired anywhere. The communist system didn't allow unemployed. So they were hired only for unskilled until late, I think 1968 when for instance, kayo CIO was allowed to return to his studies. He was a student in mechanical engineering and the others, of course. So they were marked by this experience. And the secret services were empowered with new rights after 1958.
Andrea Chalupa (00:45:44):
Yes, the demands, initially, the protestors were to try to negotiate with the regime. And I know that because my father-in-law said that they were trying to be very clever and careful by using the communist regime's own language to make an argument for their case. So it was very much a negotiation. And this month, my podcast had a book club where we read Jean Sharpe's book from Dictatorship to Democracy, which helped, of course influence many revolts around the world in recent decades, including in the Arab Spring. Jean Sharpe, who studied revolutions and ways to resist authoritarianism, said, whatever you do, don't negotiate with the regime because these are bad faith actors. So don't try to compromise up for surrender up upfront or use a language you think might appeal to them. You have to be openly defiant to challenge their very legitimacy. And so I thought that was really interesting.
(00:46:44):
So right off the bat, the Romanians were like, let's negotiate. And the tyrants were like, no, you're all in prison. And so that's a lesson for us today. I do know from all the research I've done that some survivors of these prisons, including of course the one ti, they would go on to be there in the 1980s, giving speeches, being part of solidarity movements. And I also understood that because of the shifting borders that came with the Great War and also World War ii, so World War I and World War ii, all of those years of shifting borders, Romania in Transylvania, Romania had quite a sizable Hungarian population. And so that was from the Austro-Hungarian empire. And those Hungarians inside Romania, they listened very closely to the Hungarian uprising. And they marched in large numbers.
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:47:39):
Yes, in I kka in Transylvania said the students met, but inside the university, they didn't march for the same reason of being afraid of not being arrested.
Andrea Chalupa (00:47:53):
Oh, really?
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:47:54):
Yes. They met inside the university, and they indeed attempted to organize a march a few days later, but they were arrested. They organized the meeting inside the university only in a seminar room. They didn't go outside. And of course, another reason why they were successful, they could conceal their intention because they all were shared rooms in the same student accommodation. They organized all and they discuss all inside their rooms, not outside.
Andrea Chalupa (00:48:35):
I read that there was an art school did attempt a march.
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:48:39):
Yeah,
Andrea Chalupa (00:48:39):
They did march, but then they got cornered by the police.
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:48:43):
Yeah, I think in a park in the city center. But they were arrested. I mean, the organizers were arrested the day before and don't try to follow the instructions arrested in the park.
Andrea Chalupa (00:49:00):
I read that those Hungarians in Romania had a history of feeling part of a larger empire in a sense of their own historical autonomy and that they've had more resistance to the communist regime and the regime sort of met their needs. And that when 19 88, 89 rolled around, those same Hungarians in Romania were the first to go against the regime. They were already Pred, basically.
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:49:30):
Yes, because they lived together for tens of years there Germans with the Hungarian and with the Romanian communities. So there were like brothers. They didn't have any problems one to another. If there were some problem between the, I mean the traditional field between Romanians and Hungarians, this was not low level at the popular river. It was among politicians. Yes, there are mixed families. And for instance, they had a student who was involved Ladis law, who was involved in organizing the meeting in Tim, and he was a Hungarian ethnic, but he was advised by his Romanian colleagues to not appear in public, to not get him publicly involved in being Hungarian ethnic. I mean, the Romanian colleagues protected him. They knew that he will be the first arrested.
Andrea Chalupa (00:50:41):
Let's get to the good part where the escu get captured and put on trial, then killed by a firing squad. When I finished filming Mr. Jones, I went straight from Poland to Transylvania. I landed in Inclu for the Transylvania Film Festival, and I made friends with Romanian producers. One graciously showed me around Bucharest, and I said to him, wow, Romanians are so nice, warm and welcoming. And he said to me, yes, you can imagine how horrible the escu were that we had to kill them. Escu was a rising star during the 1956 revolts, and he helped protect the regime during that time. That's sort of how he came up in the power structure. He proved himself by being a tool of repression. Then he became, I guess the successor to that dictator and ruled for many decades. His wife, Elena Escu, was just as ruthless. They did a lot of stupid things, including some things that inspired Margaret Atwood to write The Handmaid's Tale. They abandoned abortion, they forced birth on women. The orphanages were underfunded, overrun, and just horrible stories, horrible evil stories with what happened to those Romanian orphans. And Escu also took parts of Bucharest, which was considered
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:52:05):
Little Paris, yeah
Andrea Chalupa (00:52:05):
Yeah, Bucharest was once called little Paris and Escu, who I guess went to North Korea and was impressed by the Stalinist architecture of the family that rules North Korea. And he is like, I want that. And they destroyed some of the most beautiful, iconic historical neighborhoods of little Paris Bucharest to make way for this gargantuan monstrosity of a building that's ugly. Ugly, I'm sorry. But just like this marble monstrosity in the style of what you'd see in North Korea. And they thought it was so great. These morons, it's like the Percy Shelly poem. Ozzy Manus was very much the dcu. And so let's gleefully talk about how they got brought down, what led to finally toppling the dictatorship.
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:52:57):
People was fed up with the abuses they faced every day from starvation, scarcity of food supply, long queue every day for a piece of meat. There is a limit. You can support a regime for many years, but there is a limit. And the limit came in 1989. And in my opinion, some people, not all, but some people were aware of what was happening in Germany in November, 1989 and Gorbachev's new policy. And the fear was not so great. If we try something to get rid of our dictators, maybe the Soviets would not intervene as in 56 or in 90 68. So the work change, and they knew, and I think this was the reason why people got courage to revolt against the regime. If in Germany it's happening, if in Hungary is happening, why not in Romania?
Andrea Chalupa (00:54:18):
So it was like the same dynamic. In 1950, these revolt started sprouting up and people were like, let's go. We're going again. We're going to try this again. And this time they were successful because the leadership in Moscow, Gorbachev was an young, fresh face
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:54:32):
Exactly
Andrea Chalupa (00:54:33):
Who allowed it. And like Khrushchev, he allowed it to be successful this time. He did send in the soldiers to kill Lithuanians who are revolting. He faced his own coup, and the riding was on the wall. It was over. The house of cards was collapsing. There was just so much widespread corruption and abuse of power up and down the chain of command, like we're seeing with the Russian army that we've always been told was the second most powerful army in the world. And it turns out it's the second most powerful army in Ukraine because of all the corruption that collapsed that military that was supposed to seize Kiev in three days. So the Soviet Union just couldn't stand exactly. It was collapsing under its own bullshit, as they say, out of all the dictatorships that were taken down, the SCU were the only ones who were killed. We've archived footage of Elena Scu all the way to the very bitter end being stubborn and fighting with our captors. And they're like, it's over. It's over for you. And so what help did they have from, I guess the army was on the people's side, right? Scu thought he had the army on his side, but the army flipped.
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:55:40):
Yeah. I mean, the Army turned against cheque. They didn't support cheque anymore in 1989 because the revolt was huge. The Army was also affected. The communist regime promised a better life. No, and they didn't have a better life. It was worse. It became worse in the 1980s when after 1985, when Esko decided to pay all the loans and all the international loans, inex expense of population, the army was also affected by the abuses now in the army as well. For another reason, we need to take into account that all these officers and soldiers were brothers, sisters, sons, now of Romanian people. How could they turn to Romanian people? I mean, it was so treous. And they knew that all is over on the brink of collapse.
Andrea Chalupa (00:56:52):
So when thousands of Romanians took to the streets protesting and the Jesco were on the run, and they think that they have the military on their side, but the military sees the protests in the streets. Everyone's listening to the pirate radio, the protests across the eastern block and the military flips and it takes them into custody. They have a speedy trial. And that was a glorious Christmas that year. My husband remembers his father popping champagne to celebrate. And I remember my parents were born in displaced persons camps. Both of their parents escaped Soviet Ukraine. And my mom's parents lived through the Jor Stalin's genocide famine. So in 1989, I remember seeing my father, we were watching the Berlin Wall fall on live television, and I remember seeing my father crying like a baby. I've never seen him cry so passionately before. My husband and I both have memories in our families of what 1989 meant to the world and to our own family history, an incredible euphoric moment. And now today, Romania is under threat again of Moscow influence. You election had to be canceled because of Kremlin linked influence that was shady and illegal. And now that Kremlin candidate has been pushed out and your election is upcoming, as a historian, how do you see Romania today in context to Kremlin influence?
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:58:25):
I think that we need to learn from past lessons now. I think that the Romanian leadership has to be very careful and to treat each step carefully to think about what happened in the past. There is a huge debate on all the TV's programs now about forthcoming elections. They blame each other being Moscow, men and men. And so I would treat this very carefully and with caution. Many Romanians chose to leave the country for a better life outside Romania now. And I don't think that this is right, our children, and we had to have future here in Romania. It's tricky. We need to be careful.
Andrea Chalupa (00:59:26):
So you're saying it's not enough to vote for the staunchly anti Kremlin candidate. You have to give your people something to vote for?
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:59:38):
Exactly. A solid candidate who knows what to do. The Romanian economy is affected by all that is happening politically and economically.
Andrea Chalupa (00:59:50):
And Russia will take advantage of those grievances to divide and conquer and try to come back.
Dr. Corina Snitar (00:59:57):
I don't think that they have too much success in Romania because the Romanians are after 50 years of communists Soviet influence, I don't think that they will vote for somebody with link to Moscow. Remains are not anti Russian per se, but anti Moscow. I don't think that we need to be afraid that somebody will vote for a candidate. Identify with the links to Moscow.
Andrea Chalupa (01:00:36):
What sort of music were they listening to in Romania in 1956, 1960s? Was there a counterculture of folk music or rock music capturing that moment? What was the counterculture like?
Dr. Corina Snitar (01:00:53):
90% of students originated from a peasant family. Probably they listen to country music, but folk music mostly. But in Bucharest, maybe later, not in 1956, me and my friends listening, Radio Free Europe..
Andrea Chalupa (01:01:13):
Radio Free Europe, would they play Western music? Like rock and roll, Elvis Beatles,
Dr. Corina Snitar (01:01:18):
Rock and roll. Yeah, I heard about Elvis Presley from Radio Free Europe. The cops. Yeah. Were transmitted by radio free Europe. No.
Andrea Chalupa (01:01:27):
Were you allowed to listen to radio? How did you listen?
Dr. Corina Snitar (01:01:30):
Or during the night?
Andrea Chalupa (01:01:32):
During the night, how did you listen to it? Was it like on Pirate radio? Like a secret radio?
Dr. Corina Snitar (01:01:36):
Yes. Pirate radio. Yeah.
Andrea Chalupa (01:01:38):
When they say pirate radio, what is that?
Dr. Corina Snitar (01:01:40):
The frequency was pirate. You can search for the Frequency Broadcasting, radio free podcast menu you find. And I think the music were transmitted only during the night, during the day Transmitted news.
Andrea Chalupa (01:02:01):
What were some of the favorite songs that you listened to?
Dr. Corina Snitar (01:02:04):
Simon and Garrow.
Andrea Chalupa (01:02:06):
Which one? One.
Dr. Corina Snitar (01:02:09):
Silence
Andrea Chalupa (01:02:10):
The Sound of Silence.
Dr. Corina Snitar (01:02:11):
The Sound of Silence. Yes. The Sound of Silence. Yeah. My favorite.
Andrea Chalupa (01:03:05):
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(01:04:13):
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