“Putin is a Dead Man Walking”
Happy Russia Military Transport Aviation Day, everyone! This June 1st, all Nazi hunters celebrated as Ukraine destroyed 34% of Russia's warplanes. We’re throwing a Gaslit Nation block party, featuring an old friend from the war, warning the world what comes next.
Splitting his time between the frontline in Ukraine and his animal sanctuary in South Africa, conservationist Lionel De Lange runs aid to animals and people alike on the frontlines of Russia’s genocidal invasion, including shooting down drones at night. We discuss how World War III has already started; Russia’s recent attempts to bomb Chernobyl to weaponize its radioactive waste against Ukraine and broader Europe; the recent disappointing elections in Poland; Zelensky’s brilliant Operation Spider's Web that will live in history books; and why Putin is a dead man walking.
This week’s bonus show focuses on how to protect our rights in a time of lawlessness, featuring insights from Leah Litman of the Strict Scrutiny podcast and author of Lawless: How the Supreme Court Runs on Conservative Grievance, Fringe Theories, and Bad Vibes, and why everyone should watch the livestream of George Clooney’s Goodnight, and Good Luck on June 7th.
Thank you to everyone who supports the show – we could not make Gaslit Nation without you!
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June 30 4pm ET – Book club discussion of Lillian Faderman’s The Gay Revolution: The Story of the Struggle
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Show Notes:
“The PayPal Mafia”: Meet the South African Oligarchs Surrounding Trump, from Elon Musk to Peter Thiel https://www.democracynow.org/2025/2/10/elon_musk_doge_south_africa_apartheid
Trump Taps Palantir to Compile Data on Americans: The Trump administration has expanded Palantir’s work with the government, spreading the company’s technology — which could easily merge data on Americans — throughout agencies. https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/30/technology/trump-palantir-data-americans.html
The Shocking Far-Right Agenda Behind the Facial Recognition Tech Used by ICE and the FBI: Thousands of newly obtained documents show that Clearview AI’s founders always intended to target immigrants and the political left. Now their digital dragnet is in the hands of the Trump administration. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2025/04/clearview-ai-immigration-ice-fbi-surveillance-facial-recognition-hoan-ton-that-hal-lambert-trump/
'Russian bombers are burning en masse' — Ukraine's SBU drones hit 'more than 40' aircraft in mass attack, source says https://kyivindependent.com/enemy-bombers-are-burning-en-masse-ukraines-sbu-drones-hit-more-than-40-russian-aircraft/
Trump still ‘open’ to meeting Putin and Zelenskyy; Russia rejects unconditional ceasefire – as it happened https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/jun/02/ukraine-russia-istanbul-talks-vladimir-putin-voldymyr-zelenskyy-latest-news-live?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=bluesky&CMP=bsky_gu
Curtis Yarvin’s Plot Against America: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2025/06/09/curtis-yarvin-profile?utm_social-type=owned&utm_brand=tny
Trump's image of dead 'white farmers' came from Reuters footage in Congo, not South Africa https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/trumps-image-dead-white-farmers-came-reuters-footage-congo-not-south-africa-2025-05-22/
Musk Takes Stephen Miller’s Wife—as Trump Aide Rage-Tweets
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ukrainian forces stunned the Russian military with a massive attack that struck five of Putin's air bases deep inside Russia. Drones were used to carry out the strikes on dozens of nuclear bombers and other aircraft catching Russia. By complete surprise, the resulting damage was jaw dropping in scale. The cost of the destroyed aircraft, most of which Russia no longer even manufactures, is at least $7 billion. Kiev said with officials claiming they had destroyed more than one third of Russia's strategic bombers in the strike. The doomsday bombers are a critical part of Russia's nuclear deterrent, originally designed to obliterate the US and Europe with atomic weapons. In the event of an all-out war, Ukraine said the aircraft had been converted and were being used to pummel their country with cruise missiles. The attack was so shocking and successful that even pro-Moscow military bloggers are calling the strike the Russian Pearl Harbor.
(00:58):
So how did Ukraine pull off Operation Spiderweb? Here's what you need to know about the ambitious and complicated attack. The key to pulling the whole thing off sounds like something out of a Hollywood film. In an ingenious move, Kiev's Secret Service stashed the attack drones inside the roofs of wooden sheds. The sheds were then loaded onto trucks and driven to the perimeter of the air bases. The roof panels were then lifted off by a remotely activated device, so the 117 drones used in the strike could fly out and make their devastating attacks. At the right moment, the roofs of the houses were remotely opened and the drones flew to hit Russian bombers. A security source told AP all of the Ukrainian operatives who took part were smuggled back out of Russia. On the eve of the operation, the country said the operation of which the White House was reportedly not given prior warning took more than a year and a half to prepare, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyyy said.
Andrea Chalupa (02:06):
Welcome to Gaslit Nation. I am your host, Andrea Chalupa, a journalist and filmmaker and the writer and producer of the journalistic thriller, Mr. Jones, about Stalin's genocide famine in Ukraine. The film the Kremlin doesn't want you to see. They literally, literally shut down a screening in Moscow and then liquidated the organization that dared to show it. So be sure to watch it. We've got a couple of great events coming up here at Gaslit Nation, including a live taping with Kira Havens of Citizens Impeachment Monday, June 16 at 4:00 PM Eastern at our Gaslit Nation salon to talk to us about the people powered movement to impeach convicted felon Donald Trump for openly breaking the law, defying the courts and the US Constitution. Find out what Democrats in Congress think about their efforts and why impeachment matters in a time of state sanctioned lawlessness where it seems like nothing matters anymore.
(03:02):
Again, that's June 16, 4:00 PM Eastern at the Gaslit Nation Salon, only on Patreon at patreon.com/gaslit. Then on Monday, June 30th at 4:00 PM Eastern, the Gaslit Nation Book of the Month for June is Lillian Fader Men's The Gay Revolution, and we'll be discussing it. As always, our Books Club discussions happened the last Monday of the month, so June 30th at 4:00 PM Eastern the Gay Revolution is a big book about small groups of people who over history have made this country safer for everyone in the ongoing genocidal war against LGBTQ plus people. So pick a chapter or two from the book that calls to you or read the whole thing and join us for an inspiring discussion to resist the nightmare of normalization. Again, that's June 30th at 4:00 PM Eastern, only on Patreon. You can sign up, get a discounted annual membership, give the gift of membership at patreon.com/gaslit. Thank you to everyone who supports the show.
(04:03):
We could not make Gaslit Nation without you. Final big announcement. We now have an organizing group for Arizona. So if you're a Gaslit Nation listener in Arizona looking to connect with other listeners in the state, we now have a Signal Chat group for you only on Patreon. Look for the link in the show notes with us this week is a very dear old friend of mine, a South African by the name of Lionel De Lange, which means the long one who has been on the front lines of the Cold War and now the front lines of Russia's Bloodlust rematch of the Cold War with its ongoing genocidal invasion of Ukraine. Lionel is also a battle hardened conservationist who has saved all sorts of animals from neglect from private zoos, and also worked on an effort to turn Chernobyl into a national park, an effort that was put on hold due to Russia's total war invasion.
(05:05):
Lionel has been dedicated to nature as a healing force in this world and has risked his life again and again doing so. We have a lot to talk about including how America is being hijacked by drug fueled authoritarian. South African oligarchs, Elon Musk, it was just reported in the New York Times, went on a drug fueled mass murder binge with his illegal cuts through Doge, putting at risk over 3 million people with already 300,000 people likely killed by this deprived lifesaving aid. This is an absolute nightmare scenario, a drug fueled oligarch, the world's richest man, killing the most vulnerable people on this planet. This is the stuff of just the worst dystopian science fiction and it's happening now. Then you have Peter Thiel whose Palantir entered our US government under Trump's first administration and is now expanding its powers as Trump once Palantir, to basically map all of us in creating essentially a AI driven big brother that was part of Elon Musk's operation, and Doge not only mass purging our federal government, but sucking up as much data as he could for his own AI ventures.
(06:27):
And now Peter Thiel's Palantir is going to reap the rewards of that. Peter Thiel's also responsible for JD Vance who likes to cause play as a real American from the rural country, from the countryside that's Hitler ran on that same sort of mythology of the real Germans, the real Americans. And so JD Vance is just a asshole in a suit like any of these Silicon Valley mega millionaires, mega billionaires, right? So he's very much a Peter Thiel creation. Then you have David Sachs Trump's anti Ukraine, AI and crypto czar in the White House at a time when Trump and his family have been cashing in on crypto and meme coins, including Trump's $148 million meme coin dinner where anyone can essentially bribe the president of the United States, which is literally how Russia and Putin's court of oligarchs operate. If you want to be an oligarch in Russia, you've got to pay off Putin and his inner circle.
(07:22):
So how did these South African oligarchs hijack our democracy? And Lionel, can you please come with your friends from South Africa and take all of these men back home with you? Could you help us extract these South African oligarchs? We've been invaded through corruption, through bots, disinformation. We've been invaded by South African oligarchs, aligned with Russia's oligarchs in their shared petty historical grievances. Russia, mourns, the end of its empire, the Soviet Union, these South African oligarchs mourn the end of apartheid, which yes, it was disruptive, absolutely, and it was difficult time certainly, but we are where we are now. And so they're trying to with subtle scores here by destroying America that the best of America fought against apartheid, fought against the Russian Soviet hellscape, and now they want the revenge on us. So what is your sort of feeling and understanding, and can you please take these out, the Africans home with you?
Lionel De Lange (08:24):
First of all, thanks for having me on. It's great to see you again and chat with you, but they're yours now. You can have them. We most certainly don't want them back. That's how bad they are. We don't want them back. They bad news. Some of the stuff that he spouts and he talks about is absolute rubbish that I think they sit around and they make up while they're popping all the drugs that they're doing. So no, we don't want them. We have enough problems of our own with our local government to add them to the miss.
Andrea Chalupa (08:56):
I touched on it a second ago, but as a South African who grew up with people like this because they're not the exception, there's clearly some sort of culture that's come out of South Africa, some echo chamber that reinforces their worldview. Where do you think culturally, historically they're coming from?
Lionel De Lange (09:16):
I was brought up differently Musk. He came from a wealthy family from a whole different way of life. We were brought up where we were just normal run of the mill family that didn't get involved in anything like that. So the man is no good. He's got crazy ideas and I think that all that wealth has gone through his head and he's become a legend in his own mind as far as I'm concerned,
Andrea Chalupa (09:40):
Right. And he has to have everybody's babies. He has to impregnate the women of the world
Lionel De Lange (09:44):
And it's only money doing that because it can't be his personality or anything else.
Andrea Chalupa (09:49):
So you don't see the South African cabal of oligarchs as any sort of reflection because in America we have Stephen Miller Trump, we have a long history with these guys going back to slavery and the Confederacy. So for us to see a new wave of this ideology of hate come in to be reactive against our progress, that's not surprising. We've had chapter after chapter of this white supremacy, bloodlust driving America's history. You don't see these faces among you in South Africa even today.
Lionel De Lange (10:20):
No, not at all because they wouldn't last in South Africa because it would go against everything that our new a NC government stands for. They wouldn't last you. The government would shut them down. They would be dealt with quite easily no matter how much money they have. And the ones that are in the governments who speak for them. When they were in the office with Trump the other day and they had Anton Rupert there that a couple of golfers, those are just yes men that'll say anything to further their status and position in South Africa. They won't turn or the likes of Musk won't be vocal and all that in South Africa, he doesn't have the guts to do it
Andrea Chalupa (11:02):
Really because your government would shut him down,
Lionel De Lange (11:05):
He would be dealt with that wouldn't stand for it.
Andrea Chalupa (11:08):
So when Trump is in the White House saying to the South African president serial OSA that there's white genocide in South Africa and that the United States is obligated to take in white South African refugees, and he is holding up reports and photographs saying that, look at these dead white farmers in South Africa, nevermind that the report actually comes from Congo and the South African president is sitting there going like, oh my God, sorry, I don't have a plane. A luxury jumbo jet to give you, to make you stop harassing me to my face in the Oval Office. What were your thoughts on that Oval Office charade that Trump put on against South Africa?
Lionel De Lange (11:53):
The information has been fed as wrong. I dunno if you're aware of the stats of the murders that happen in South Africa on a daily basis. I think we are up to 76, 75 or 76 murders a day. I mean, it's like being at Warrior and that's not just white people. Yes, there are a lot of farmers that have been killed, but if you look at the number of whites that have been murdered as opposed to the number of black people that have been murdered, it's far less for the whites. So they are being fed incorrect information. It's wrong that the farmers are being attacked because the guys do want their land back. The government has come up with a couple of bills where it could literally walk onto your property and take it away. And it's something that worries me because we have the sanctuary. I've got 150 hectares, which is dedicated purely to saving animals' lives for even until after I've gone.
(12:47):
If the government doesn't come and take it away, the government does do some bad stuff, but the numbers, it's not genocide. It really isn't genocide because there are, what are our numbers now? Are we 58 million or 60 million people in South Africa, 1.5, 1.4 million or white? If they want to wipe us out, we'd all be gone in a heartbeat. We wouldn't be able to do anything. So there's no genocide. There's just major, major violent crime, lots of deaths and murder on a daily basis. We in fact, all around us where we are, every single one of our neighbors have been hit or attacked a couple of murders, nothing but everyone's been robbed and attacked and the land has been invaded. Touch wood, we haven't because the story in our area, if I can just put this in the story in our areas that I let my lions out of the enclosures at five o'clock in the evening and I put them over at seven o'clock in the morning. So even the local police chief for the area believes that story. And we think that's why we've had none of these attacks.
Andrea Chalupa (13:56):
People are afraid of all the lions on your sanctuary
Lionel De Lange (14:00):
Apparently. Apparently running around. It's not like we can let them out and call them back in, but eat us as well. So
Andrea Chalupa (14:07):
Everyone's afraid of your lion, even you.
Lionel De Lange (14:09):
Yeah, well, I'm not afraid of them. I respect them. They know who we are and what we've done for them, and they wouldn't just eat us, but we do respect them. They're a wild animal and that's the way it should stay. But just getting back to the genocidal thing, it's way out of order what they're saying. It's not true. If you had to really sit down and look at the official stats of how many murders are committed on a daily basis and break it down that into black and white, and you see way more black people are being killed and murdered and wiped out than white people.
Andrea Chalupa (14:44):
And Trump is not welcoming black South Africans to the United States. It's the white South Africans. They're
Lionel De Lange (14:53):
Middle to lower class that have been able to get in as well,
Andrea Chalupa (14:56):
Right, as long as they're white. And how is all of this being reported on in South Africa, especially that horrific oval office, WWF wrestling performance that Trump put on? How is all of this being reported on where you are?
Lionel De Lange (15:10):
Many of the white people say it's good. This is from the old school, from the sort of apartheid era type people. The older people would say, oh, it's good. It's about time, it's been exposed. And then you've got the other end of it in South Africa, they anter it and saying it's not true, and we are all lying and it's propaganda, and Musk is an idiot.
Andrea Chalupa (15:33):
Does Trump enjoy support in South Africa
Lionel De Lange (15:36):
With a few of the white population? Yes, with the black population, definitely not. I think a comment was made, I was watching the news was a yesterday evening or this morning, one of the politicians says, we don't need Americans yet to sort out our problems. We can do it ourselves. That's what he said about Trump. And so they're not interested in his help in any way, shape or form. But that being said, when he does eventually cut aid to South Africa completely, they'll change their tune. They flip flop around to where they can get the best deal. And I think that speaks for most politicians anyway.
Andrea Chalupa (16:13):
Right? So let's talk about the war in Ukraine where you spend a lot of time and there is just a historic military operation carried out by the Ukrainian SBU, overseen by President Zelenskyy, an operation called spiderweb that's going to be studied by military historians for generations to come. It's such a David versus Goliath story took over 18 months where Ukraine used these extremely cheap drones, a whole arsenal of cheap drones that they were able to operate by truck throughout Russia where the top of the truck opened up by remote control. And these very cheap drones flew out and decimated over 30% of Russian war planes, extremely expensive war planes. And then one, I don't know the term of it, but one radar system that helps these planes identify their targets. And the targets we're talking about are civilians across Ukraine, including a children's hospital, a cancer hospital, schools, apartment, buildings in the middle of the night when people are sleeping.
(17:30):
This is what these planes, these Russian war planes are being used for to slaughter civilians. And an arsenal of over a hundred sheep, Ukrainian made drones, took out over 30% of Ukraine's military Air Force. And it was such a sneak attack, brilliantly done, ironically, launched with Ukraine's famous sense of humor on Russian military aviation day for the whole world to celebrate. And they even had one of their insider operation hubs for the Ukrainians was next to an FSB office. So this was Carry and Zelenskyy announced, Hey Russia, Zelenskyy announcing this operation, said to the world, our guys who are on the inside who carry this out are now back home. So if the Russians want to claim they've arrested anyone just to save face, haven't we brought all of our team home? What are your thoughts on all this?
Lionel De Lange (18:29):
I think it's amazing what they did. And you say the cheap homemade drones, I think they range from about between $300 and $500 to make one of those drones and adapted to do what it did. And they took out the numbers vary. I think we are up to 7 billion US is what they
Andrea Chalupa (18:46):
Lost. 7 billion US was wiped out 7 billion on the Russian side,
Lionel De Lange (18:49):
Billion and the early warning plane, the radar plane. They only had five of those. They've already taken out a couple previously, and then they took another one out today. So that's great news. They really need, that's 34% of their fleet of aircraft were taken out. It's going to be discussed and talked about for years. It's stuff that movies are made of. And it's amazing that they kept us quiet for a year and a half and it's mind boggling. But we are going to suffer for it. We are going to get hit really, really hard. It's coming, I dunno if you saw the numbers yesterday and the day before, the number of drone attacks and incoming missiles. We are going to feel it for the next few days.
Andrea Chalupa (19:32):
And those drones, many of them are coming from Iran. And this is all happening ahead of peace talks that Trump's administration is pushing for in Istanbul.
Lionel De Lange (19:42):
I think they're actually sitting down as we are speaking, I think that meeting night was supposed to be this afternoon,
Andrea Chalupa (19:48):
But nothing is going to work for Putin because he wants Ukraine. He's just dead set on Ukraine. And the PR spin of this coming out of Russia is they're blaming Zelenskyy for disrespecting trump's. They're playing to Trump's ego to try to get under his skin to really ensure that their guy delivers for them in weakening Ukraine denying US aid. But what Ukraine showed with this super clever operation is that if the US is going to slow walk aid or deny aid, then Ukraine is going to have to act in its own best interest independent of the us. So Ukraine is basically cutting off the leash and saying, we're unleashed now. We're going to do what it takes in order to protect ourselves.
Lionel De Lange (20:33):
And that's exactly what they're doing. And it happened to South Africa in apartheid area and it wasn't good. Apartheid was bad and bad things happened, but we were also sanctioned to the hi in South Africa and we didn't care. We just went ahead and we developed our own arms and ammunitions and for want of a better term, got the job done and it would've carried on like that if we weren't forced by the United States to stop. And thank God it did stop because it was also a crazy war. But it's exactly what's happening to Ukraine now. Their back's against the wall, and if a doesn't come, they will make a plan in we say Amark plan. So that would sort of translate to we'll always make a plan and that's what the Ukrainians will do. They're too proud. They've got nowhere to go and they will fight for their land. I've met so many people now in Ukraine. I mean, I've been there forever, forever for 11 years, but they're completely different nation as to what they were when I first got there.
Andrea Chalupa (21:36):
What are some of those differences?
Lionel De Lange (21:38):
Before the war started, everybody, no one trusted each other. Everybody was having a go at each other. No one was, Ukrainians are nice people, but they weren't very tolerant of each other and they didn't really respect each other, especially on the roads or in the supermarkets or something like that. They would also shove their way in, push their way around and treat each other badly. Now everyone has become more tolerant of each other. They're more polite. You walk down the street, everyone greets you. Hello, how are you? They become a different people and they're ready to help at the drop of a hat, no matter what you're doing, what you need, you can turn around and ask for help now. And they're all there. They'll queue up to be at your side, which is amazing. And they're tough and they won't give up. A lot of people scream and shout about the draft dodgers and everybody's sitting in Levo and they don't care about the war down there. That comes from a couple of people down in the south and the east. There's this own little internal friction. But if you go and look at, what's it called, the field of Mars, the cemetery up in Le Viv, I think they're bearing 10 to 15 of their own soldiers from that area every week. So also down in the south and the east, the information that's being spread around in the propaganda, that's all over the place. I mean, you've got to be careful what you're eat and listen to in your Ukraine nowadays,
Andrea Chalupa (23:05):
Right? Because disinformation trying to divide and conquer
Lionel De Lange (23:08):
Everywhere, everywhere. So there's a bit of internal stuff going on there, but they still, they're tough people and they'll stand up and they'll fight. They hefty. They've got nowhere else to go to.
Andrea Chalupa (23:20):
Tell us about your conservation work in Ukraine. You and I linked up because you had raised the alarm through your conservation work that there was this abandoned oligarch zoo. I wish it was a zoo full of oligarchs like Elon Musk and David Sachs,
(23:38):
But I mean maybe one day. But this was a private zoo that used to be owned by an oligarch in Ukraine in the head ofan region. And these animals were left to starve and you and a group of local Ukrainian volunteers took it over you. Crowdfunded donations. I donated. I amplified your campaign. I did everything I could. We helped get it in the press around the world. And we successfully raised the money needed to transform this into a community center. It was a community center for families to come and meet these animals and these animals to be well taken care of. What happened to that? Now
Lionel De Lange (24:13):
It's a bit of a sad story. Well, it could have been a lot sadder, but so that is on the island in it's called Giro Park, which is water park in Cason. Even to go there as we speak to the residential part of it is a no no, the army won't let us in as volunteers. There are people living there who actually come out and meet me and I give them aid and they go back in. But under serious threats, serious danger of drone attacks, artillery and mortars. But on the eastern edge of that island is a smaller island where the zoo was, if you remember, there were five bears living in about 35 square meters of steel and concrete and a pack of wolves living in 18 square meters. And then with your help and the crowdfunding that we did, we were able to enlarge all the enclosures because the city council wouldn't let us move any of the animals because it's all about money.
(25:08):
And in fact, many of those city council members are collaborators and have now jumped to the other side, believe it or not. So just before the 6th of June, so going back a couple of years when they blew the Novi Kaka Dam that flooded the whole of Caron as well, all the waterfront, all the apartments, the whole island and where the zoo was, was completely flooded. If the animals were there, they wouldn't have been able to escape. They would've died a horrific death. But about a month before they blew the dam, there's a guy called Zuko from Opal. He owns the Taigan Safari Park, and he came up there with a whole lot of vehicles and they stole all the animals and took them down to his safari park and his zoo. So the zoo was empty when the flood hit. So that was one good thing that came out of that. Otherwise everything would've been killed.
Andrea Chalupa (26:09):
What extraordinary timing, did he have any ink? He just did it on his own. Did he have an inkling that this massive crime against humanity of the dam flooding was
Lionel De Lange (26:19):
Coming? He must have known because they did it exactly in time to get it done. But also that being said, there was another zoo in Kafka and none of the animals made it out of there. It blew and it was too close to the dam. They didn't get any animals out. They all drowned with hundreds of people,
Andrea Chalupa (26:40):
Hundreds of people. Russia has just done so many horrific things throughout this war. So many international laws broken that it's easy to lose track. And people can forget that they blew a dam. They blew a dam wide open, and intentionally
Lionel De Lange (26:57):
They destroyed. They destroyed an ecosystem.
Andrea Chalupa (26:59):
Exactly. So let's not lose sight of that. And also the region we're talking about, Hassan was also made famous, unfortunately for the horrific headlines that Russian drones were hunting humans, that they basically turned this whole, they still do. And they turned this entire region, region into a hunting ground where people would be walking around, going to get food, tend to their gardens to feed themselves, and then the Russians would just bam kill you. They called it human safari.
Lionel De Lange (27:31):
That's correct. Well, I was, Monday before lost, we had been doing an aid run and we were nearly hit with a FPV drone dropping a grenade. It landed around 70 meters behind us as we were exiting the area. So it still happens today. It continues every single day where they do, they hunt anything. And I unfortunately, my vehicles look military-like. So we are a big target. We've been in shelling incidents, we've been sniped at, I was in my ambulance and we've been sniped at across the river. I was running aid to some people. I'm not only working with animals now, but I also take aid into when I can get aid for people, I take it, I'll never turn it down, and I'll always help wherever we can. And we go to some of the more dangerous areas where the military will allow us in there. Some areas they just say you're not going. And I understand that. So yeah, it's become very dangerous.
Andrea Chalupa (28:34):
Tell us about Chernobyl because before the total war invasion, you were part of an effort to try to turn Chernobyl into national parkland. It was the site of the worst nuclear disaster in history, which the Soviets actively were covering up at the time. The HBO series, Chernobyl brilliantly exposes all this. And what ends up happening is the humans abandoned Chernobyl and then nature takes over. So abandoned dogs mixed with wolves and you have trees regrowing over everything. And nature began its process of healing without human interference. Could you talk a little bit about that?
Lionel De Lange (29:18):
So prior to the war, we did look at it and we wanted to go in because the animals, they were thriving, man. They weren't being born with two heads and six eyes and being deformed in any way, shape or form. It was like a population explosion of animals going on there. I mean, they even took those pky horses in there, and they did really well before the Russians got there. And even residents from when Chernobyl happened had moved back into the area and they were living off the land and there were no side effects. So we wanted to establish a park there, which would've been great for, because at the time I was rescuing bears, lions hadn't become a big issue, and we were just looking for different areas of homes to put up sanctuaries. And because they were doing so well there, we wanted to do something there.
(30:11):
But then with bureaucracy and the change of government, and unfortunately it never happened, but the animals are doing really, really well. Quite a few unfortunately have been killed because of the war, but the dogs and the cats and the birds, and even though the bears that are around there are doing are really well, the Russians made a big mistake. They went in and they started digging trenches in the ground and lived in those dugouts. And most of them have all been hospitalized. Apparently a few have died from radiation poisoning. How they even thought that they could do that because a lot of the radiation has soaked into the ground and came back calmer, came back and ate them.
Andrea Chalupa (30:58):
And so you've been in Chernobyl, have you?
Lionel De Lange (31:01):
Yes, I've been before the war.
Andrea Chalupa (31:03):
What was it like for you having that experience?
Lionel De Lange (31:06):
Thoroughly enjoyed it. It was an experience. I'll never ever forget what we saw and what we experienced and everything was just left. And then also having watched the miniseries and also having played Sony PlayStation and one of the games was sitting there, everything was as I expected it to be, but it was just mind blowing to actually see it and to see how they just upped and walked away from everything because they were idiots. They were bad management in those days, and nobody would listen. And the world still hasn't learned a big lesson. I mean, they sent a drone through the sarcophagus the other day of the one that had the meltdown. Do you know that they flew a drone into it to try and open up the concrete sarcophagus?
Andrea Chalupa (31:52):
So the Russians recently tried to weaponize Chernobyl to unleash radioactive the material that's still at Chernobyl. They tried to explode Chernobyl in order to send all this radioactive material out into the air where it will obviously not just be limited to Ukraine, but would fly into the jet streams into the air and travel across Europe, including Russia. So that's what the Russians had in mind.
Lionel De Lange (32:20):
Well, I dunno if it's what they had in mind, but it's what they did. It didn't penetrate. And the Ukrainian workers were able to go and start fixing it up immediately.
Andrea Chalupa (32:34):
And I just want to emphasize for the world that when we say on this show, and when Ukraine experts remind the world, Ukraine's not just fighting for Ukraine, they're fighting for all of us. This is an example of what we are talking about, Ukrainians in Chernobyl who are risking their lives to stay there to contain this horrific disaster that's ongoing. They repaired this radioactive area from a Russian drone so that the material radioactive material wouldn't spread all over Europe. Imagine if you're vacationing in Europe and Russia's able to explode Chernobyl and send that radioactive material over to where you are. That's what Ukrainians are risking their lives for, to keep all of us safe.
Lionel De Lange (33:24):
The Ukrainian soldiers, the Ukrainian people are protecting the world. Everyone says, oh, world War III soon. World War II is already started. It's just, it's happening in Ukraine right now. And they're holding back the evil forces of Putin and the gang. They really are. They think they're safe there. Right now. It's just going to take one missile or one drone or one thing to cross into Poland or Latvia or Estonia or even Romania and do some damage. Not a little bit of fallout that has happened already, but to injure somebody, then they'll realize that they're in this game. It hasn't happened yet, everyone. Well, it's not happening to us. So no one really takes it as seriously as they should. That's my personal opinion. But it's exactly what's happening. But Trump, for example, he hasn't even visited Ukraine since the war started.
Andrea Chalupa (34:17):
Oh, they'll never visit. I mean you saw,
Lionel De Lange (34:18):
No, he won't.
Andrea Chalupa (34:19):
You saw the bullying. They did a Zelenskyy, of course, Zelenskyy in that Oval office meeting. Zelenskyy invited JD Vance. He's like, come to Ukraine. And then JD Vance fired back. I'm not going to go on your propaganda tour.
Lionel De Lange (34:31):
It just shows you that they're not really, really interested. And I think Trump would be too scared was I think a couple of Akers would give him a good slapping if he had to come over here for treating their president like that. But just getting back to president, and I'll be very honest, when he was elected president, I still said to Anya at the time, I said, this is a big mistake. Maron, this guy won the election. He got the young vote because of that TV show that he did. The accidental president, I dunno if you saw it.
Andrea Chalupa (35:01):
Yeah, Zelenskyy a huge star filling stadiums in that part of the world.
Lionel De Lange (35:05):
And that's how he got elected. And again, that's my opinion. And I said to any, this is a big mistake. And when the war started, he's just a completely different man. He is a euro, he is no other president in history I think has ever acted as bravely and has done what he has done. I think he is shit out at what he does.
Andrea Chalupa (35:26):
That's wonderful to hear. And of course, Trump and Putin want regime change
Lionel De Lange (35:31):
In
Andrea Chalupa (35:31):
Ukraine. They're calling for new elections, even though Ukraine's constitution forbids it under martial law due to the,
Lionel De Lange (35:38):
But they won't see that as, they don't see the Constitution as sort of legal. This is all in Zelenskyy’s favor. He's just doing what their constitution says and why should he takes over and what happens and how do you vote, how you get soldiers to vote on the frontline? You can't pull them off the frontline. How do you get all the displaced people around the world to go to different voting stations? How are you going to get all those people together? Who's going to control that? It's an impossibility to do. And then when you have a voting station, it'll be public knowledge and the Russian can target those stations where thousands and thousands of people would be out to vote. So you cannot have any sort of election, and we wouldn't want one. But I think he's doing a good job.
Andrea Chalupa (36:25):
Absolutely. And then the other question I want to ask you about, we've had some major European elections that the fate of the world depend on, and we had Germans barely defeating a FD, the far right party that Elon Musk was openly supporting, and they've elected probably the best chancellor that Germany's had in decades who's very strong about security, independence, energy independence for Europe and support for Ukraine. Then Moldova and Romania also dodged the bullet of keeping their pro-Russian parties out of power. Huge victories there. Unfortunately, this Sunday, Poland did not get the memo. And Poland very narrowly elected a deeply corrupt Trumpian figure who is staunchly anti L-G-B-T-Q rights, staunchly anti-abortion, staunchly anti Ukraine. There's a lot of tension in Poland because so many Ukrainian refugees are there. And so you have this sort of MAGA populist virus inside Poland that for many years had this Trumpian government in power that purged the courts, purged the state TV networks to turn them into disinformation, like what we're dealing with here in America with the voice of America being taken over by Kerry Lake, Trumpian mag disinformation weapon, and the courts being packed by their loyalists in Poland and horrifying laws.
(37:58):
And when I was in Warsaw, I want to say like 2019, I was talking to some Ukrainians working in Warsaw, and they were saying, we feel vulnerable walking the streets of Warsaw because of this horrible tension that this populist government has put a target on our heads as it being non polish. It's nasty. It is like the stuff of the Holocaust, the polls that were fine, deporting Jewish polls to the concentration camps. It's that level of hate virus that has mind warped such a large population in Poland to keep electing these horrifying hate driven governments that are deeply corrupt. What are your thoughts on that Polish election?
Lionel De Lange (38:41):
Not happy about it. But he's not Putin though.
Andrea Chalupa (38:46):
Well, no. To be pro-Russian in Poland is like a political death sentence because
Lionel De Lange (38:50):
Polls suffered
Andrea Chalupa (38:51):
Greatly. The Soviets,
Lionel De Lange (38:52):
That's one good thing. What he says about Ukrainians taking advantage of their hospitality, I don't know, can't really comment on that. But he says, reciprocity, what you do for us will do for you. So there's a bit of work that they can do on that. And then the big issue is the massacre of the polls by the Ukrainians. And there always two sides to a story. They want to sit down and hash that out. And I wish they could do it just so that they could all get on the same page and move forward. But I don't think it's going to be, him being elected is going to be detrimental to Ukraine. I think he will still stand by us, and I think we'll get the support we need from them. That's what myself and a lot of the people and friends that I mixed with in Ukraine think anyway. I don't think it's bad news for us. It's bad news for
Andrea Chalupa (39:45):
The polls, especially the gay ones and the women
Lionel De Lange (39:48):
And the gay Paul,
Andrea Chalupa (39:49):
The refugees.
Lionel De Lange (39:50):
It's bad news. But that's a fight for another day. What do we do now? We've got to protect the whole world against Putin. I mean, if he gets across Ukraine, Europe's finished man, and then there's going to be no L-G-B-T-Q at all anywhere in all of Europe. If he gets that right.
Andrea Chalupa (40:11):
And I know that seems like an impossibility, but for us, longtime Ukraine watchers,
Lionel De Lange (40:17):
It's not
Andrea Chalupa (40:17):
Impossible. What is happening right now in Ukraine, this total war invasion that at one time seemed like an impossibility. That's why so many military experts in Ukraine thought that the United States was being hysterical when the State Department under Biden kept issuing warnings that Putin had made up his mind and was going to launch a total war invasion. Ukrainian military experts at the time were saying, that's not possible. That's not going to happen. And then it happened. So what we're telling people is what's happening in Ukraine is not normal, and it can continue to happen if we let Russia win.
Lionel De Lange (40:53):
But he's doing it every week and all this stuff. Putin's been up to all over the world, meddling everywhere. It's just a matter of time before years ago at the Baltic states up there, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. And sadly, it's got to happen. And his ego is so big he thinks he can get away with it. And I think his downfall will be he's going to take on too much like Hitler did, fighting on too many fronts. And that's the only way he is going to get wiped out. Unfortunately, millions more are going to have to, I hate saying this, millions more are going to have to die before this man has stopped. He won't give up for a couple of reasons. His ego, number one, and number two, you'll fall out of a window because he's convinced the Russians that this is the right thing to do. And they listened to him. Unfortunately, it's quite sad. And if he says, okay, it's over now. We've done enough. You'll be dead very soon.
Andrea Chalupa (41:51):
So you're saying that Putin is trapped in the war of his own making.
Lionel De Lange (41:55):
Even if he wanted to walk away tomorrow and they promised him that he wouldn't go to court and they wouldn't lock him away for the rest of his life, they dropped all the charges against him. He's dead anyway. He is a dead man walking. He's a dead man walking. How many of his mates have lost everything and lost even more now in the last couple of days and their economy is tanking. I don't care what anyone says, propaganda. You ought be stupid to believe all that crap. But yeah, there, there's no chance for him. He can't. And it's the Russian way. They always take out the boys that they don't like at the top eventually. And I think he's made too many mistakes now and too many costly mistakes. Let's not even talk about the lives we're talking about the costly mistakes on his mates, his oligo mates.
Andrea Chalupa (42:43):
Let's hope so. It's only a matter of time,
Lionel De Lange (42:46):
But who takes over Medvedev? With his bottle of vodka a day or two bottles of vodka a day. He's no good either. The next one's going to be just as crazy. So we will see.
Andrea Chalupa (43:07):
Our discussion continues, and you can get access to that by signing up at the truth teller level or higher on Patreon. Discounted annual memberships are available, and you can also give the gift of membership all summer long. Gaslit Nation created with Love and Anger has been presenting a special series featuring leading experts on how to smash the patriarchy and the oligarchy to make the world safer for everyone. Trump didn't happen overnight.
(43:37):
Let's plant Seeds of Hope to together for the hottest of hot takes. Join the conversation at the Gaslit Nation salons every Monday at 4:00 PM Eastern. I'll be there with our global community of listeners. Come for deep dives into the news. Learn from fellow listeners and share what's happening in your corner of the world.
(44:00):
Can't make it live. Recordings of our Monday salons are available on Patreon, along with our monthly Gaslit Nation book Club, access the Salons bonus shows. Add free episodes and more at patreon.com/gaslit. That's patreon.com/gaslit. Thank you to everyone who supports the show To help Ukraine with urgently needed humanitarian aid. Join me in donating to ROM for ukraine@rozenforukraine.org to support refugees in conflict zones. Donate to Doctors Without borders@doctorswithoutborders.org and to protect critically endangered orangutans already under pressure from the palm oil industry. Donate to The Orangutan project@theorangutanproject.org. Gaslit Nation is produced by Andrea Chalupa.
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