The Untold, Inspiring History Behind Mrs. Orwell That Terrifies the Kremlin
As Donald Trump holds the world hostage with his sloppy Iran War, and JD Vance campaigns for Orban, the Kremlin’s weapon in Hungary, Gaslit Nation returns to a shared family history of resistance. Andrea is joined this week by the brilliant artist Maya Hayuk to break down the story behind Andrea’s new graphic novel, Mrs. Orwell. Born from a decade of research into the Holodomor, Stalin’s genocide famine in Ukraine, Mrs. Orwell is a monument to an unsung heroine of literature and the truth the Kremlin tried to bury.
We also cover the horrifying reality of the current front lines of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, where the UNESCO heritage site of L’viv’s ancient city center was bombed by Russia while the U.S. sleepwalks through yet another "war of choice." While we share the intense rage of seeing Ukrainians having to bailout Trump and Vance in Iran, we remain focused on the agency of the people. The oligarch mafia model, which relies on apathy, despair, and nihilism, is being challenged by a culture of defiance.
We end with a miraculous artifact: a 1947 Ukrainian translation of Animal Farm discovered in both Andrea and Maya’s families. This book, distributed in post-WWII refugee camps, is a sign that the spirit of rebellion cannot be extinguished. We refuse to be "useful idiots" for the transnational crime network; we have each other, and we are going to build a better world from the ashes.
For our bonus episode out later this week, we take a closer look at JD and Usha Vance’s trip to Hungary to serve the Kremlin, and the latest hellscape headlines. To listen, subscribe to our Patreon at the Truth-Teller level ($5/month) or higher. For more on the Ukrainian refugee camp Animal Farm, read Andrea’s book Orwell and The Refugees: The Untold Story of Animal Farm, which Patreon supporters at the Truth-teller ($10/month) and up level get for free.
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Show Notes:
Maya Hayuk’s artwork: https://www.instagram.com/mayahayuk/
Join our April 13 book launch and live-taping to celebrate Mrs. Orwell. Patreon supporters get in free! https://powerhousearena.com/events/book-launch-mrs-orwell-by-andrea-chalupa-in-conversation-with-nomiki-konst/
Orwell and The Refugees: The Untold Story of Animal Farm https://www.amazon.com/Orwell-Refugees-Untold-Story-Animal-ebook/dp/B007JNKF5G
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Andrea Chalupa (00:00:11):
Welcome to Gaslignation, a show about corruption in America and rising autocracy worldwide. As the world waits to see if it's going to be destroyed by trust fund kid, six time bankrupt, convicted felon, Russian asset, serial predator, Donald Trump, in the next 48 hours in his terrifying, sloppy war against Iran, holding the whole world hostage.
(00:00:37):
We are going to get into all of that, including JD and Usha Vance's trip to Hungary to save Orban in the fight for his political life because if he loses this election, gets out of power, it's prison time for Orban. It's springtime for Hitler. And I want to remind everyone that Hungary, Orban's Hungary, is the Kremlin's agent in the EU. There's been several investigations confirming that, including a recent one, showing how Orban's government was on the phone with the Kremlin, doing everything they could to weaken EU sanctions designed to try to stop Russia's genocidal invasion of Ukraine. So J.D. Vance and Usha Vance are directly serving the Kremlin by openly campaigning for Victor Orban and Hungary. That is what's going on there.
(00:01:30):
So we're going to discuss all this and more. And we are also developing a big old episode on the women, the women, who enabled Jeffrey Epstein's elite criminal cabal that is coming up for you next week based on a request by a Gaslit Nation listener on Patreon, Deborah. You know who you are. So I'm very excited to bring that to you.
(00:01:53):
For this week, we have a special conversation with Ukrainian American artist Maya Hayuk. Her paintings have such a strong signature. So you have to go to the show notes and look at her Instagram and just be wowed by the beautiful blossoming colors of happiness in springtime all over her artwork, which has been a defining contribution to New York City's art scene for 20 plus years now.
(00:02:18):
I've longtime been a fan of hers. Maya and I recently finally met at a party for Roslyn for Ukraine, and it was a huge honor of my life. And so we came together for this conversation to take stock in where we are in the world today, Russia's war in Ukraine. And also the why art matters today, the past and present lessons for us about why we need to maintain our creativity even at the end of the world. Because let me just tell you, Maya and I, being children of refugees, the world has always been ending. The world has always been on fire. The world has always been corrupt and chaotic. Corruption is an industry. That's always been a dynamic of life here in our species for our species. I know things seem even more existential because of the climate crisis, obviously, and AI accelerating. Through it all, human beings have held on to their humanity and the arts and maintaining a creative space for yourself and others have been instrumental for that, of holding on your humanity, staying human.
(00:03:18):
So this conversation is just one to help us stay grounded in the chaos of this moment. And to remind you all that Maya Hayuk and I will be at Powerhouse Arena in Dumbo, Brooklyn, this coming Monday, April 13 for the launch of my new graphic novel, Mrs. Orwell. Patreon supporters get in free, of course. And those that come in person to the event, you get a book and a tote bag, a Mrs. Orwelll tote bag courtesy of our friends at Patreon.
(00:03:44):
If you want to get access to this event for free and the fun gifts, go to patreon.com/gaslit. That's patreon.com/gaslit and become a member to support our independent journalism. Join our weekly Monday salons and so much more, get so much more. And thank you to everyone who keeps Gaslit Nation going, especially during these insane times that we're going to get through together. So to find more about Mrs. Orwell, to get to order your copy of this beautiful graphic novel illustrated by the great Brahm Revel, it's been over a decade in the making.
(00:04:18):
The story has been developing for over a decade in my soul. It was born out of my film, Mr. Jones, about the Holodomor, Stalin's Genocide famine in Ukraine, where I tried to shoehorn in Eileen Blair, George Orwell's wife and muse as a character. Obviously, her spirit was too big and she needed her own project and that is what Mrs. Orwell is. It's a tribute to this unsung heroine of literature. There would've been no George Orwell without her. She is so important to his greatest works of art. It was really a reminder to us that it takes a team, it takes community, it takes a love affair to get the truth out into the world today. We all have to find our great loves in this moment. We all have to hold on tight to the gentleness inside ourselves and others and show ourselves in grace and get through this time together and create, create, create, whatever that looks like to you.
(00:05:11):
It can be not just a painting or a book or a film or a song. It could be a movement. It could be a dinner party where you bring the people you love the most together in one room and just see what comes out of that. Just stay creative in this time. Do not let the fascists hijack your mind because that is what they want to do. It is springtime now for us. So plant your seeds of hope and change, and you're going to do that by staying creative. Maya and I are soul sisters. We are both the weirdo artists in the Ukrainian international Illuminati.
(00:05:50):
And we come from Bohemian, Ukrainian families, and we're going to get into a remarkable shared history, having to do a George Orwell. That is why we're here. We are talking about, as well, my new graphic novel with the genius artist that is Brahm Revel. I'm going to hold it up for you all. It is the remarkable, remarkable story grounded in history. I fact check this like you would not believe. It is over a decade of research because this project was born from my Holodomor film, the Holodomor being Stalin's genocide famine in Ukraine. And I had dedicated my life to making a movie about the Holodomor because my beloved Did Lonya, my grandfather, who was born and raised in Donbas, grew up speaking Ukrainian, writing Ukrainian, thinking in Ukrainian, and then the Soviets took over and he and his family barely survived an artificial famine, manmade the borders of Ukraine sealed, dead bodies piling up in the street.
(00:06:52):
And no one knew about this because the Kremlin was so good at buying off journalists and industry titans in the West. And the media was of course very different then. We couldn't go to social media like Ukrainians are doing today. And so it was the buried truth and that added to the trauma growing up in the West and no one knowing about this horrific, horrific mass murder that killed up to four million Ukrainians.
Maya Hayuk (00:07:15):
At least.
Andrea Chalupa (00:07:15):
At least conservative estimates.
Maya Hayuk (00:07:18):
Conservative estimate. I mean, again, I've heard everything to like 12 million. I've heard crazy figures, but-
Andrea Chalupa (00:07:25):
Stalin himself said 10 million.
Maya Hayuk (00:07:28):
He's proud of himself. Yeah.
Andrea Chalupa (00:07:31):
Yeah. So Walter Durante, who is the villain of my film, played beautifully by Peter Sarsgasrd.
Maya Hayuk (00:07:37):
Amazing. I watched it last night. I cried.
Andrea Chalupa (00:07:39):
Thank you. Thank you. So real life Walter Duranty won his Pulitzer Prize as the Moscow Bureau Chief for the New York Times the same year. He's writing Soviet press releases in the Times. In the same year Stalin's laying the groundwork of the famine that go on to murder millions. They knew. They all knew. There were famine refugees that made it out that told the world they knew. Anyway, so in my years of research from my film, Mr. Jones, I fell in love with George Orwell and his wife. And I did a ton of research because George Orwell is in my film writing the words of Animal Farm that narrate the story showing the world that the truth will always get out. The truth cannot be killed. And I had to create Orwell as a real person, a character. And in doing so, I fell in love with his wife, Eileen, and I tried to shoehorn her into the script and I realized she needed her own story.
(00:08:32):
And that story is now Mrs. Orwell. I'm so honored. And we're going to have a launch event here in Brooklyn, New York on April 13, Rasm for Ukraine, a brilliant nonprofit that is doing the work of just the Lord's work, humanitarian aid at a time when the US is stepping back. So Raza needs our help and support. So I'm proud to launch Mrs. Orwell, April 13 at Powerhouse Books Arena with Rosen for Ukraine and also the brilliant nonprofit, Media and Democracy Project, facts check this information, gaslighting in the media. Both of these groups, Rasm for Ukraine and Media and Democracy Forum would be groups that the Orwells, Eileen and Eric Blair would've loved. They were grassroots champions through and through. They didn't just point out what was happening. They rolled up their sleeves and they got in the fight. So that's what we're going to do together.
(00:09:28):
April 13, Powerhouse Books Arena. Maya's going to be there and I'm so excited and honored. Now that's out of the way. I want to talk to you, Maya, like, my God, how are you doing? How are you feeling?
Maya Hayuk (00:09:40):
I'm okay. You know what Ukrainians say? Meaning I'm normal. It's normal, all normal. And I don't know if you saw that a low estimate is 1500 drones and 30 ballistic missiles launched on Ukraine today. In the day, they were able to shoot down somewhere around 200 or 500 possibly, but a lot went through. A bunch of people died and 100% all civilian infrastructure, apartments, a birthing hospital, another hospital, school all over Ukraine, but in the Western regions also of Ukraine. And I hope I'm not going off the tangent of how are you, because Howard U is like, Oh my God, I've been on the phone with my friends living in Lviv in Western Ukraine, the most beautiful city in the world. And yeah, they're shook. It's insane. But real quick, my whole thing, and I don't know if I was talking with you about this when I saw you at Razom office, was that they've invited, AST, brought 200 plus sharp shooters, the shooters that take down those drones from Ukraine and they are helping the United States in this ridiculous war of choice.
(00:11:07):
And they're teaching people how to shoot down drones. And my belief is if you want to learn how to shoot down drones, come to Ukraine, help out, learn from the best, but don't take these guys and gals who are the best in the world at this off of their positions and ask them to go, This is absolute ... I'm just ... I'm so angry right now. I'm so ... So how am I? I'm normal.
Andrea Chalupa (00:11:37):
No, no, none of this is normal. This is Orwellian.
Maya Hayuk (00:11:41):
It's wild. What do you think they would've thought? Where would they be? On the front lines in Ukraine, like how they went to Spain when they
Andrea Chalupa (00:11:48):
Were- Oral Eileen. Yes, 100%. Oral Eileen would've been in Ukraine. I want to just tell people, waking up to the news that Lviv, Ukraine, a United Nations, a UNESCO heritage site.
Maya Hayuk (00:12:00):
Yep. 16th century monastery and church, blown up.
Andrea Chalupa (00:12:05):
Hauntingly beautiful, university town, lots of young people, unbelievably beautiful. If Ukraine were allowed to develop in peace, you would all be going to Leviv. It would be on your bucket list. And to wake up to it on fire, missiles in the heart of Lviv, they're doing that because they can, because America is pulled into yet another war, and Russia's getting their sanctions dropped for oil.
Maya Hayuk (00:12:34):
And if Putin has his wet dream, he's going to do exactly what he's been hoping for, which is dissolving the West from within, which is the dissolution of NATO that if America drops out, "Oh, they didn't come and help us." And when Trump has been asked about the Ukrainians who are there helping, he literally says, "Oh, we don't need them, but we don't need them." So there's that. That really pisses me off. But God, I'm in such a bad mood right now. It's so nice to talk to you because now I'm going to be in a better mood because I'm going to take all this energy and put it towards something constructive and amazing, which is talking with you about all of this. So yeah, no, it's an absolutely insane time and moment. And I wonder if any of this will make it to the CNN or MSNOW.
(00:13:32):
It'll probably make it to Deutsche Welle. It'll definitely make it to Al Jazeera, but probably Reuters, probably BBC, but it's curious whether it'll even make it onto the news. And if it does, if it's going to be a little piece sort of peppered in at the end. So one other thing that's very noteworthy about UV, which also kind of ties to what we are here to talk about is UV is kind of the capital of internally displaced people in Ukraine. So it's kind of the capital. It's become crowded and overpriced. And so Ivano Franciosk is the other town where a lot of people, displaced people are moving and that, and these cities are growing rapidly. It means that there's just a need for more infrastructure, more housing. These cities are growing and there are people from all over Ukraine moving around within Ukraine now. But if I hear one more person tell me that, why doesn't Ukraine give up territory for the sake of peace?
(00:14:41):
I'll ask them why they wouldn't want to cut off one of their legs for the sake of peace, or why they wouldn't want to give up a room in their apartment that's being occupied by a terrorist and a burglar and a rapist and a fraud.
(00:15:00):
I do want to think about how and where the Orwells would be in this fight, because I wonder what kind of a book he would write about this at this point. God, man. Yeah, stop me before I go to far.
Andrea Chalupa (00:15:15):
I have to tell you, everybody listening from Maya, this is real grief. It's real rage. We live in war times. We live in war times. Ukraine is the front line of the global war between democracy and fascism. Ukraine has always been a laboratory for Kremlin aggression. The same dark arts that brought Donald Trump to power in 2016 helped bring to power the Trumpian gold-loving Yetikovic who got ran out of town in a popular uprising that brought together people across Ukrainian society, and he's been in Russia ever since. And so if you're wondering why does everything feel extra chaotic and dangerous now with two fatal plane crashes in America when we haven't had one before in 15 years with storm troopers, ice that have killed people at our airports across the country with massive tourism dollars dropping everywhere because people are too terrified to come to America, why might that all be happening?
(00:16:17):
All of the firehose of corruption because Trump was always Russia's useful idiot. It doesn't mean he does a lot of favors for them. We see it. It's obvious. It's out in the open. They don't even try to hide it. They just got their sanctions dropped for oil. The Russian economy bases their budget on the price of oil. And so the reality is that the Russians found this vain, useful idiot with zero morals and just a loose cannon.
(00:16:50):
And as the idiot sons, Eric and Don Jr. have said, their businesses relied a lot on dirty Russian money, dirty Russian money. Fred Trump built up Brighton Beach for all the Russians settled and the Jackson-Vanik Amendment let a lot of people out of the country. And then when the wall fell, more came and Fred Trump was cashing in, developing the properties. And then Trump continued that, developing little Moscow, Sunny Isles, Florida, where there are a lot of shell companies owing real estate, including some that have been raided by the FBI because they're linked to Russian officials. This is a deeply corrupt criminal family that has heavily depended on dirty Russian money and they know where their money comes from and it shows and all that they do for Russian interests, including destroying and weakening the United States from within.
Maya Hayuk (00:17:51):
Yeah. No, it is genius as far as how it's been engineered. It's a long time coming as you're expressing and illustrating and it's working. And man, I got to say, I'm pissed off and angry right now. My dad is so depressed right now that he won't even talk with me where he can't pick up the phone. Call me, he can't pick up the phone when I call. And I don't even know what dark spiral he's gone down, but he just weeks ago was saying that we are so close. The Russian economy is about to collapse. Trust me guys, we're so close. Every measure of every scholar that I watch and I follow and I listen to on the YouTubes is like everyone agrees. It's about to absolutely crumble and then this. And this is ... What a comeback story for them, right? Cool. We got sanctions lifted.
(00:19:06):
Yay. Now billions and billions of dollars. I think the estimate in the first couple days alone was something like $10 billion, right? And now-
Andrea Chalupa (00:19:17):
It's amazing what a two birds, one stone operation, the Trump White House is running. So one thing people have to understand is that the nodes of the transnational crime network that we're up against. For instance, Netanyahu, who's been in power for 20 years, ran for office with a massive billboard of himself, shaking hands with Putin. Russia is one of the widely spoken languages in Israel. I spoke to a 90 something year old American real estate developer who made a killing going to Russia in the '90s, helping the Russians develop. He worked in real estate buildings. He changed the skyline to Chicago, so he went to Russia to help them develop their skyline. He witnessed the rise of the oligarchs when he said that many of them would send their money on projects directly to Israel. Israel's been massively infiltrated with a lot of these Russian oligarchs crime lords, right?
(00:20:17):
They all have dual Israeli Russian citizenship, including Darapaska, Roman Abramovich. And so what I'm saying is what this operation has determined, and keep in mind, Netanyahu and Jared Kushner are old family friends. Netanyahu used to stay at Kushner's family at home when he was coming up. And so basically they're finally getting their Iran war, which they've always wanted. And so Netanyahu gets his forever war. He promised us that this was going to be a long war. He said that despite international law saying you're breaking international law and you're wanted for war crimes, he's like, "It's going to be a long war." This is what he had in mind. And so Kushner, Trump, all of them, they're like, "We're going to go into Iran and we're finally going to get Iran and that will give us cover to drop those Russian sanctions and make us even with our Russian friends." That's the con.
(00:21:14):
And we, the American people.
Maya Hayuk (00:21:14):
Oh yeah. No, blatantly corrupt and obvious and transparent as far as how we see it. And you got to give it ... It's genius. It plays into ... I mean, listen, I'm from the school of ... I grew up on schoolhouse rocks. I don't know if you watched that.
Andrea Chalupa (00:21:36):
Me too. Of course.
Maya Hayuk (00:21:37):
Yeah. And I'm still confused as far as my civics understanding is. I'm still confused how Trump was qualified, able, how it was legally permissible that someone with 34 felony counts can run for president, but can't get a job as a manager at McDonald's because of his felony charges. I mean, don't quote me on that, but essentially wouldn't be able to get a job as a manager at McDonald's, but can be the president of the country. How now he can wage a war. And I mean, he did it with Venezuela as well without congressional permission. Again, I'm just like, I'm absolutely dazed. It's shoot first, do whatever first, and then five months down the line, SCOTUS is going to come to you with like, "Oh, actually these tariffs are illegal and how long did it take them? Seven months." So something is inherently broken in our system if it could allow for something like this to happen, for J6 to happen, for pardons to be made for all of the J6ers for every bit of the gaslighting and corruption that's going on now where anytime anything is being called out, they simply say, "But Hunter Biden, but Joe Biden." And you're like, "No, no, no.
(00:23:12):
We're talking about what you guys are doing.This is really messed up." So I'm still at a loss.That's what drains my brain so hard, so much. And you have an incredible grasp on the actual history here of New York, which is absolutely fascinating. As you were telling me that, I was like, I didn't know that exactly, but you know it in great detail and it's not surprising at all. I mean, the level of greed is ...
Andrea Chalupa (00:23:42):
I will say I interviewed Chase Strangio of the ACLU. Yeah, they're brilliant, brilliant trans LGBTQ+ advocate at the ACLU and they told me that the reality is across the country, we do have laws. We have some strong laws, but they're just not being enforced. So there's the law and then there's enforcing the law. And that's why, of course, as we saw in the civil rights movement, they had to send in the National Guard to allow Black people to finally vote. And so we just don't have the moral will in America anymore to enforce our laws. There are laws in the Constitution put in place after the Civil War to deal with traitors like Trump. Those laws exist. They absolutely exist and they weren't enforced. And the problem is also the Democratic Party that is playing by an old playbook when the playbook is on fire.
Maya Hayuk (00:24:45):
It's been gutted and rewritten. And so ...
Andrea Chalupa (00:24:50):
Yeah. And so I don't know if it's a combination of lack of imagination, normalcy bias, thinking that after January 6th, Americans would never vote for Trump again, and there's no reason to try to stop him now. We dodged that bullet. Let's just keep continuing. Everything's fine. No, the Democrats also wasted a massive, massive moral obligation when they controlled both Chambers of Congress and had met the White House, and that was the time for them to force through banning members of Congress, banning Trump from running for office. Absolutely could have done that. They could have ... And then you have these Democratic Party apologists and others saying their freedom of speech issues. He was saying things right on the Capitol when they're about to storm in and violently try to overthrow a democracy that maybe that's freedom of speech. He incited a violent coup. They were planning this out in the open for weeks.
(00:25:56):
They had free two rallies. Steve Bannon on his podcast was calling people to the coup. They had a war room in the Willard Hotel next to the White House. But the problem is it's not just, of course, Democrats being sleepy. It's also Republicans who are kind of okay with what Trump's doing because of the tax breaks, because he's going to stick it to the woke mob and the trans people and the hairy feminists.
(00:26:24):
Christopher Ray, Republican. Right? James Comey, Robert Mueller, Republican. They didn't fight with the urgency. They didn't finish the job. They didn't go all the way because there was something about Trump that appealed to their conservative values. It wasn't the white men in America that were on the line. They convinced themselves, so what's the harm? And all of our corporate buddies are going to make a killing. And so will we when we go into private practice?
Maya Hayuk (00:26:53):
Exactly. Man, that Trump tweet that was like, "Join us at the Capitol. Will be wild." That one really echoes in a dark place in my head. But you're right. The culture wars actually also blow my mind because they created them. There was nothing coming that I saw from the Democrats or from the Democratic Party or from the left about wokeism or ... DEI was already established a long, long time ago, not only out of just morality and awesomeness, but also from just a straight up capitalistic approach of the broader, the wider the groups of people that we can sell stuff to, the better. That's just really basic like, " Oh, cool. Young women, cool, got them, like older men. "But they just absolutely knew how to construct this idea that the biggest enemy is something called woke. And I had to ask my mom and my dad both individually, or actually rather they asked me like, "Maya, what is woke?
(00:28:07):
And I was like, Oh, interesting. Oh, because even my dad at one point, some time ago, he's like, "Yeah, I mean, Democrats are really going too far on this whole woke thing." And I was like, "What do you mean? Can you give me an example of what you're talking about?"
(00:28:21):
And he's so awesome and so smart and so intelligent that he was actually able to say," You know what, Maya? I actually don't know exactly what woke is. "And I thought that was this moment of enlightenment. And I was like, " Well, it's actually a moment of enlightenment. It's like to awake, to be awoken, to wake up, to when you do, you have a sense of enlightenment that you're able to see different ways that people live, different ways that people who have different experiences historically, and you're awake to this idea that not everyone is a white male Christian.
(00:29:03):
And I mean, I probably said it in a better, more eloquent way at the time. And the same thing though with my mom where she's like, " I don't really understand what woke is. "And now she loves saying how woke she is because she is, where she's like, " I'm woke. "And she hangs out with her senior center in Brisbane, California, and she's enlightening them and they're all liberal. There was one guy who voted for Trump and they were all like, " Oh my God, that guy voted for Trump. And my mom turned him in a split second where I was like, "So what's the story?" She's like, "He was just a Republican and just voted on party line. He didn't really ... " She's like, "But I changed him." I'm like, "Of course you did.
(00:29:53):
I know. No, it's just logical. I guess that's what ... I know that we are men One thing I remind myself, and probably we've talked about, but I'm just really open to this idea that they feed off of our liberal tears. They love that they can say these hateful, awful, resentful things, then sort of say that it's like a Christian belief or whatever, which you're like, "I don't know what part of Christianity that is. " And stand by it and live with it while the rest of us are getting whiplash with how many things are happening. And I have to remind myself that they get off on knowing that I'm pissed off, that I'm miserable, that I'm losing sleep, that I get really, really anxious about this, that I get really obsessed about it all. They get off on that. So when I remind myself of that, it's when I'm able to shift.
(00:30:57):
And for pleasure, I watched Mr. Jones last night, which was my light. I loved it. I actually did not see the last bit, no spoilers, but I had never seen Holodomor in a film before, especially in a ... It was so beautifully done. The way that that part of it seemed, that whole section when he's in the village, it feels like it's all suddenly being filmed in black and white, but it's not, right? It's just the color...
Andrea Chalupa (00:31:35):
It feels that way. It's just a different saturation.
Maya Hayuk (00:31:37):
It's a different ... I could tell it was a different color saturation because there was the fire, but it's incredible. I was so moved by how Holodomor was portrayed in this quiet nightmare where he jumps the train, he's running through the forest in the winter, we know he's going to survive, but you're like, "What the fuck?" And he sees one dead body right away. As soon as getting off the train, he's like, "How come nobody has any attention for this? " And then the moment he opens his mouth, he's immediately targeted as a spy. So he's immediately like, "Oh, fuck." And he's running, running, running. And then he goes to the barn that his mother had, it was where she lived and there's a photograph of her with the barn behind her. So he knows that he's connected to this place and he meets the children.
(00:32:39):
But the part where the ... Okay. I was moved to tears when he's on the path and there's these guys with the horse and the bodies and the bodies are so real. They're so real. And then there's a child crying and I'm going to get choked up right now. For some reason, that part broke me. It just broke me. It was like that child survived and that they threw the child onto the same wagon. And you hope that the child's going to survive. But portraying cannibalism in a way that was so horror movie, but the most beautiful, quiet, poetic, horror movie. And I have tears in my eyes right now talking with you about this. I was really shifting gears out of all of the things that we're talking about and going like, "Okay, I'm going to watch this film tonight." And it was incredible.
(00:33:38):
And I actually, yeah, I am looking forward to watching ... I can't remember the part that I had to shut it off because I kept nodding out. It was already like three in the morning. Anyway, just bravo.
Andrea Chalupa (00:33:51):
Up at three in the morning, that's the witching hour.
Maya Hayuk (00:33:55):
Right. You know what? It's the not having children blessing in my life where if I wake up at 11:00 AM, it's like because I was up until ... My brain is more active at night. And I mean, there's not that many of us that have this ... My wiring, my cadence rhythms, my circadian rhythms rather, my relationship to the sun and how the earth turns is just, it's always been this way. Since I was a child, I remember in high school particularly, I would just stay up with my Walkman headphones on drawing until 2:00, 3:00 in the morning, and then the alarm would go off at 6:00 in the morning and I'd be mortified. And that feeling of my eyes would be burning and just every cell in my body was like, "All you need is sleep and then you'll be a normal person." But I couldn't.
(00:34:59):
I had to go to school. And I promised myself, it wasn't about not having kids as much as I promised myself that I will construct a life for myself where ideally I can get enough sleep because I get so much work done late at night. There are no distractions, no interruptions. I just get a lot done at night. So that's something about me. And I'm also communicating with people, let's say in Ukraine at that hour, it's like morning for them. And then I can write emails, go to sleep, wake up, and then I haven't lost a whole day because it's already 6:00 PM for them, let's say when it's 11:00 AM or noon, depending on daylight savings.
Andrea Chalupa (00:35:44):
I have to ask you about your art because I've long been a fan of your work. There's even an email I wrote you out of the blue, which I found organizing this event with you where I was trying to get one of your pieces and you wrote me such a lovely email back with your personality on full display. And one thing that's remarkable is that you're famous for your bright, happy colors and such a fascinating, unexpected combination of colors and getting to know you, that is who you are inside. And I love that we're having this conversation at the start of spring because you are such a springtime soul.
Maya Hayuk (00:36:22):
Awww.
Andrea Chalupa (00:36:23):
That is what the world needs right now. And I want to also share with everyone, I know Maya and I, we live so many today around the world because so many people are impacted by this global war between fascism and democracy. It's the way we all need to think about today is we're living in wartimes. It doesn't matter where you are, we are living in war times. And so one thing I wanted to talk to you about is, was that difficult for you to become an artist? Because that's such a brave thing to do. George Orwell, for instance, ran from his true nature as an artist. He went into the British Imperial Police in India. For five years.
(00:37:08):
And he was big brother. He was the boots smashing the face. And it was Eileen O'Shaughnessy, who was one of the shining lights in his life. There are other women too, like his aunt Nellie in Paris who gave him place to crash and helped him find a job in a London bookstore and was fascinating in her own right. There were women around him that shaped him, but Eileen O'Shaughnessy, hierary, Irish English girl who lived her values. She was a springtime spirit herself like you. And just wonderful, beautiful soul. And that gave him a happy little nest from which to create from. And she was so vibrant of spirit that she shaped his most impactful work on so many levels, as we see in my new graphic novel, Mrs. Orwell, of course. But I know from studying voices like theirs, and I know from my own experience trying to get Mr. Jones made and how difficult that was for my Ukrainian family, that I wasn't getting some stable jobs somewhere, and that I had to deal with years of rejection and getting that film made.
(00:38:12):
So I want to hear from you, what was your journey of becoming an artist? Was your family supportive? What was that like for you? Because finding your voice, because you have such a distinct voice and it's such an important one for Ukraine.
Maya Hayuk (00:38:25):
Man, that's so cool. Thank you so much. I want to see what email you're talking about. That's really funny. I think it's sort of like our artist for me was something that I pushed against when I was young because my father has a lot of natural talent and he showed it, but he never pursued then art. He became a geographer. Yeah. So I know where I got my talent. And so I knew from forever that I have this genetic talent, but being an artist for me was and always has been not a career path, but like a way of living where it means that for me, it means that I'm an activist. It means that I'm engaged deeply in the world. It means that I have a way of being able to see things ideally like they're all happening for the first time or they're repeating themselves or whatever those things are.
(00:39:30):
It also means that I'm not married to one way of working or one medium. I've always drawn and painted, but there were parts of my life that I was a very serious photographer and I am and was, have always been just in love with music, in love with underground music and stuff. So I wound up becoming a photographer also ... Well, my career has always been in food service and bartending in the service industry. I was also working a lot as a scenic, as a scenic painter, as a art director, as a prop builder, as a photo assistant. So I've always been a gig worker. I've had maybe ... I'm trying to think of a full-time job. The only full-time rad full-time job I had was in the late '90s in San Francisco. A group of us started this thing called With It Girl, which was a website magazine for women who engage in action sports like skate, surf, snowboarding, wakeboarding as well, and then in painting graffiti, music, photography.
(00:40:48):
So it was basically everything that was cool to us. And it was so before its time. That was in 1998 when we started that website or 99 even, but we were like way, way, way, way, way before. We had all these ideas that were impossible to implement because they hadn't been invented yet on the internet and stuff. So really, I have always just made stuff and not ... I've always made things that I haven't actually thought so much about, will this thing earn me a living? I've always had these gig jobs that are the things that I can earn a good living, work my ass off on some project for some movie or whatever for a week or two or five, amass some money, and then travel to Europe, go find other artists, do my thing, then dip back into the gig money. But now for a while now, for, gosh, going on 20 years, my full-time job is being an artist.
(00:41:54):
So everything I do is I'm the boss of, I'm incorporated and I'm the boss lady, and most of my job is administrative.
Andrea Chalupa (00:42:09):
Ain't that the truth.
Maya Hayuk (00:42:10):
Yeah, you get it. And then I'm painting ... Right now, about 20% of my week is actually painting and the other 80% is administrative. So it's spread out into days, but I probably only get to paint about 10 hours right now this week, this coming week. I don't know what's going to happen. But no, I'm incredibly lucky that my parents were incredibly ... They understood my talent. They understood that I had something special, but what they didn't know is that I could become an artist. They really wanted me to work on Madison Avenue as a illustrator in an advertising firm. Of course, of course that's what they wanted me to do. So it took years and years and years and years before I was able to prove to them and show them and have them be proud of me. And honestly, I don't know if this is a Ukrainian thing or who I am, but when people ask me about what is success to you, it's like when my parents are proud.
(00:43:24):
That's it. That's all. That's all I need. 100%.That movie, your parents are like, are they so proud of you now?
Andrea Chalupa (00:43:32):
They finally get it. They get it.
(00:43:35):
To my mother's credit, there was a point where I wanted to give up and she said, Don't you dare. And that made a big difference. I remember after the film came out, I was presenting it in a Ukrainian Catholic or Ukrainian Orthodox church in Washington DC with all these Ukrainians. And my dad was sitting by the side of the stage providing color commentary as I'm talking. And I would say things like, "Yeah, and I struggled for years juggling all these odd jobs, lots of rejection." And my dad chimes in, and we didn't believe in her at all.
Maya Hayuk (00:44:09):
That's awesome. That's so honest. That is so honest because-
Andrea Chalupa (00:44:15):
He was freaked out. Again, my mom stood up and stood strong when it mattered, but I made them very nervous in pursuing this passion project for Mr. Jones. And I did it because it was my divulga. It was my grandpa. It was my little nest growing up. I wanted that safety in the world. And I wanted justice for the countless victims. And it was always going to be a historical monument, but then as we're getting closer, unfortunately it became a warning system.
(00:44:48):
And because of studying the world, the life and times of George Orwell and Gareth Jones, the hero of my film, Mr. Jones, I was able to see the same forces that they were up against today. And I was warning everyone in 2015, 2016, Trump is a Russian asset. The Russians are hacking the election. I got hit pieces for Kushner's observer, New York Republic, the Atlantic labeled me conspiracy theorists. They called me hysterical and now I love them. I love that. It was devastating at the time because it was very isolating and people really believed what they wrote. But now if you read them, those pieces today, I was right.
Maya Hayuk (00:45:33):
Bravo. I'm glad that that shifted for you into something hilarious and amazing that if you affected them enough that they had to insult you, and they had to discredit you because that's a dangerous belief system to speak the truth there.
Andrea Chalupa (00:45:53):
And I stopped to the rip pieces by launching my own podcast, Slit Nation, and that just amplified my voice. So I think people have to understand that listening to our grief, listening to our rage, take all of that and do something, be defiant, build something. If you don't know where to start, you can donate. If you don't have the means to donate, you can amplify Razom for Ukraine, Kia democracy projects, give what you can to Razom for Ukraine, amplify them. If money's tight right now, amplify them, amplify credible news reports on what's happening in Ukraine.
Maya Hayuk (00:46:28):
I was going to say Kyiv Independent would be one to support and amplify and post in your stories and follow, follow, follow. To me, Kyiv Independent is the top, top, tippy top of Ukrainian journalism that is absolutely, absolutely independent, by the way. They were courted by big money and they said no to it. So it's like a truly independent media state. Sorry. We can fight you off.
Andrea Chalupa (00:47:00):
No, we did a whole fundraising. James Norton, the star of Mr. Jones and Igneshka Hall and the director, we did a fundraiser for Kyiv Independent. Now, I want to talk about our shared family history.
Maya Hayuk (00:47:11):
Okay.
Andrea Chalupa (00:47:11):
We discovered that both of us in our families, we had your dad or some ... So my uncle, my mom's family, my mom's then teenage brother in the refugee camp in Europe, right after World War II, picks up a copy of George Orwell's Animal Farm that has been translated into Ukrainian with George Orwell's help by a group of Ukrainian hipsters stranded in Germany after World War II. One of those hipsters, the leader of this project, his name was Ihorshipshanko, brilliant young man. He goes on to found the Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute where I studied right before he died. I got to meet him. He went on to lead an extraordinary career as a real life Indiana Jones academic, traveling the world, researching and proving that Ukraine's key of ruse was far more significant in European history than people previously understood.
(00:48:16):
So he himself was remarkable. And so he wrote to Orwell. He somehow hunted down Orwell's home address and Orwell had just become a widow. Orwell's wife, Eileen Blair.
(00:48:29):
She just died suddenly in routine surgery. Orwell had depended on her emotionally, financially, creatively, and suddenly he was a single father of the little baby boy they just adopted, mourning. And he gets a letter from a Ukrainian refugee saying, "I read Animal Farm. Who are you and how did you know the truth?" Isn't that remarkable?
Maya Hayuk (00:48:50):
I am so happy to hear. I did not know this part of the story.
Andrea Chalupa (00:48:53):
Yes. And so Orwell, who was famously private, he put in his will that he wouldn't have a biography written about him. And the young poet that he married on his deathbed because he was a hornball, Sonia Brownwell was very, very tight on his papers. She guarded them a little too much. But what was remarkable is that Ehorshibshanko, the young hipster Ukrainian refugee, got Orwell to supply a personal statement of who he was and why he wrote Animal Farm, and they made it the preface.
Maya Hayuk (00:49:29):
This is the preface, yeah.
Andrea Chalupa (00:49:30):
Ukrainian translation of Animal Farm, and it's considered today his most personal statement of why he wrote that book. And in it, he describes how his eyes were open to the Soviet myth when Stalin's agents were hunting down and killing his friends and almost him and his wife when they're in Spain fighting fascists in the Spanish Civil War. And when I read that, I was like, "Who was Orwell's wife? What kind of woman would Center Honeymoon find? I want to be her. Who is she?" And so that began my whole journey with Mrs. Orwell. But I wanted to ask you, so
(00:50:05):
I discovered that we had this refugee camp edition of Animal Farm in our family when I was desperate to get Mr. Jones made, nobody wanted it. I went to Orwell for inspiration, discovered that he had struggled to get Animal Farm out in the world. It was rejected, including by a publisher who canceled a deal because of pressure from a Soviet spy embedded within the British Ministry of Information. And so Orwell persevered, Animal Farm gets out into the world, gets immediately adopted by Ukrainian refugees who are as early as fans, and that becomes his breakout hit that finally makes him merchant famous. And I was like, "This is my happy ending. I'm going to put George Orwell in my little more screenplay showing the truth will prevail." And when I had dinner with my Uncle Vitali, who my aunt claims was friends with your dad back in the day-
Maya Hayuk (00:50:58):
My dad would pick up the phone. I would ask him, "You know what? I'm going to send him this recording. He's not going to watch it."
Andrea Chalupa (00:51:04):
So tell him it's Vitale Case's niece and maybe that will get into finally pick up the phone. But so my uncle, Vitali Case, I'm telling him all this stuff about what I just told you about Orwell. And my uncle looks at me very casually over dinner and goes, "Yeah, I have a copy of that book. I picked it up in the refugee camp when I was a kid." And then my aunt gets up from the table, goes to the bedroom where he kept the book all these years next to his bed. The man was a literature professor at Rutgers. He taught novel writing. He had an entire private library index that you would not believe. And he yet kept this book all those years next to his bed. And my aunt came back to the table and gave it to me. And now I have it here in Brooklyn.
(00:51:45):
And I was like, "This is a sign from goddess that I meant to persevere and keep oral in the script and keep going and now here we are. " And I wanted to ask you, how did you discover this book in your family and what do you know about it in terms of your backstory?
Maya Hayuk (00:52:00):
Well, interestingly. Okay. So do you know how Vitali got the book in the DP camp or was it passed out?
Andrea Chalupa (00:52:09):
His memory was this. They were in Heidenau , Germany. The Ukrainians were self-organizing. So there was a lot of guilt among the Ukrainians, as you know with your parents and my parents, there was a lot of guilt that the kids were missing school because of the war. So the Ukrainians organized a school system. So if you were a ballerina back in Kyiv, you suddenly had to teach ballet or dancing. Whatever you did back in Ukraine, you had to teach it to the kids.
(00:52:35):
Was the system they set. And so my uncle remembered his professor, whoever that was, telling the kids, "Go to the canteen and pick up this book by George Orwell called Animal Farm." And so Animal Farm became assigned reading for the very first time in a Ukrainian refugee camp. And so my uncle went to the canteen and picked up a coffee and when they immigrated to New York City, they can only take what they could carry. They took Animal Farm with them.
Maya Hayuk (00:53:03):
Of course. Do you have the copy with you?
Andrea Chalupa (00:53:05):
I have the copy. I don't physically have it because I have a four-year-old in my home and I'm afraid she's going to rip it up. Oh my God, you have it. That's what it looks like. And the illustrator-
Maya Hayuk (00:53:16):
Look how kind it is. Yeah.
Andrea Chalupa (00:53:17):
The illustrator who did that cover, he would go on to be an illustrator for the Washington Post. That's how talented were. And I want to point out that the refugees today who are homeless, they are just as talented. They don't need to be talented to survive and be allowed to live. But I'm just letting you know when you see refugees, those are rich, beautiful lives that is potential that needs to be developed for the sake of the world.
Maya Hayuk (00:53:46):
I know. It's every time you get into a taxi cab, have a conversation with what the taxi driver's PhD is in. And it's usually a doctorate in brain surgery or whatever, and they're from Afghanistan or ... We live in such an incredible world and we live in New York, which is arguably the best city in the world. It just is. I will tell you quickly, I'm so happy to hear that and that the way that you just described it, because this came into my life in kind of an interesting circle where
(00:54:26):
My father is a hardcore intellectual. He's one of the smartest people I've ever met, my mother as well. And he taught my brother chess and he always had these intellectual conversations with my brother who's two years older than me, who is also arguably one of the smartest people I've ever met. And I was kind of like, he would be tired when he'd go to teach me chess and he'd get irritable really quickly because I couldn't memorize ... My brain just operates a different way. So I was kind of like, he was cool with me, but I don't remember ever actually bonding with my father until this one summer day. We were at our house and he offered to pay me $10 to read Animal Farm. And so yeah, I read it in one sitting, hanging out in our hammock and our beautiful backyard. And then after I finished reading the book, we had our first real discussion about what the symbolism means, what the metaphors are.
(00:55:29):
I was really into school and I was pretty good at school. And it actually wound up then informing me in my own personal interest and pursuit in social structures, in politics, in just society in general. And it shaped ... And I mean, it absolutely ... Music pushed me in this direction, put me in a direction of discovering the punk rock scene of the mid, late '80s in Baltimore, Washington, DC. That's where minor threat came from. That's where what became Fugazi came from. And that whole scene was incredibly political. And I kind of started looking through this lens of music about the world. And I surrounded myself only with people who shared not the same beliefs, but I don't know if you ... It was just this idea, I think the easiest slogan would be question everything. And we did, but questioning everything like ... My mom jokes around about how she raised me to be a feminist and that maybe she went too far because I decided I never wanted to get married or have kids.
(00:56:46):
I'd get married to get a passport that would get me out of the United States, but I don't really see another healthcare elsewhere, but I actually don't see the purpose of it. I believe other people are ... That's cool. But my mom and I last night were talking about the Handmaid's Tale. Anyway, this came around full circle where my dad told me about it. I didn't know he had this. I didn't know the story that at the DP camp, they were in Germany. My dad was in Schweinford, which hilariously means pig root, pig lane kind of thing. It was like Butcher City. So kind of cute that in Schweinford, they were giving out this book. And inside the book, I'm not going to open it, but inside the book, my grandfather, who was a Orthodox priest, he was the priest at the camp. It has his signature in the front and in the back on the last page.
(00:57:49):
And there's also one little tiny correction that he made where there was an extra letter and he, with a pen, changed it. At some point when I have my white gloves, I'll open that up and I'll show you. So this came back around and I begged my father if he would possibly give it to me because I don't have anything from my grandfather. Did you see me, the Reverend Simon Hayuk.
(00:58:19):
And so this felt like the thing that on so many levels that I cherish, but also it's like, my grandfather held this, read this. And if my father would pick up the phone, I would also ask him, did he read this then? But I'm guessing that from what you're saying, he probably did. So my father and my grandfather potentially both read this, but knowing my father and his politics and his belief systems, it absolutely makes sense that this at age, let's see, he would've been ... Well, let's see, 1947 it was printed, I think it was 19 ... I'm not sure because my father won't pick up the phone. I think that this was around 1950 then, because I think that they then immigrated in 51, anyway, to New York where he met my mom. Yeah, my family's mom. So my parents both were raised in New York.
(00:59:21):
My mom was raised in New York City. My dad was raised in upstate New York in different parishes, like Syracuse, Rochester, but then came to New York for university. And my mom and dad met in university because all the Ukrainians hung out and my mom is Catholic. So, oh my God, when she married-
Andrea Chalupa (00:59:42):
And your dad is orthodox.
Maya Hayuk (00:59:46):
Neither of them is religious.
Andrea Chalupa (00:59:48):
Really? Listen, my mom is Catholic. My dad is Orthodox. Their parents didn't talk to each other at the wedding.
Maya Hayuk (00:59:54):
I don't know if it went that far. Did your mom, because my mom doesn't have any history with this at the DP camp she was in, they were somewhere near Munich or in Munich proper, but she doesn't have any memory about this book or anything. Did your mom have any history with it or I guess neither your mom nor dad did in their DP camp.
Andrea Chalupa (01:00:19):
No, my mom was a baby. She spent the first five years in the refugee camp, had the time of her life. She had a childhood in the refugee camps. I mean, that's not always the case, obviously.
Maya Hayuk (01:00:34):
I love that thought.
Andrea Chalupa (01:00:34):
But she remembered hunting for mushrooms in the forest and the whole camp smelling of melted mushrooms and butter. And so I collected our family stories in Orwell and the Refugees, the Untold Story of Animal Farm, of how all of this came together. And I self-published that book and going on all the speaking tours among Ukrainians for that book is what eventually led to the financing of Mr. Jones. And it led to a viral hashtag Digital Maidon during EuroMaidon, an urgent SOS for Ukraine. When the mainstream media was obsessed with Justin Bieber's arrest in Miami, we launched Digital Maidon and it went like wildfire because of all the groups I met on my tour. And it was even used by Bianca Jagger, the prime minister of France. And so all of those efforts finally got the team together that would make Mr. Jones. It was extraordinary.
(01:01:24):
So it's a reminder, as dark as things get, do something instead of nothing. Build something. Be creative. Join forces. Amplify.
Maya Hayuk (01:01:34):
I look like a Muppet. I saw myself for a second because I've been looking at you and then I saw that I'm at the bottom of the screen. I look like one of those things on the side of the street that's like asking you to buy a used car.
Andrea Chalupa (01:01:48):
100%. But I'll see you on Monday, April 14 at Powerhouse Books Arena for the Razom for Ukraine and Median Democracy Project sponsored launch of my new graphic novel.
Maya Hayuk (01:02:01):
Okay, wait. Now I'm going to do this. I'm going to be the Muppet thing on the side of the road. You need to buy this book.
Andrea Chalupa (01:02:09):
Yes. It's the power of defiance and why it takes a team to get the truth out. Orwell was a band name. Eric Blair. We're in the trenches together, kindred spirits. And so are we, in this time, we have each other. We're going to fight. We're going to get through this. We're going to build a better world from the ashes, just like those who came before us.
Maya Hayuk (01:02:27):
I'm so proud of you.
Andrea Chalupa (01:02:29):
I'm so proud of you. You're an amazing, beautiful person and the world needs your springtime.
(01:02:32):
Our discussion continues and you can get access to that by signing up at the truth teller level or higher on Patreon. Discounted annual memberships are available and you can give the gift of membership. Get bonus shows, invites to exclusive events, all our shows at free, and more at patreon.com/gaslit. That's Patreon.com/gaslit. Thank you to everyone who supports the show.
(01:03:00):
To help Ukraine with urgently needed humanitarian aid, join me in donating to Razom for Ukraine at razomforukraine.org. To support refugees and conflict zones, donate to doctors without orders at doctorswithoutborders.org. And to protect critically endangered orangutans already under pressure from the palm oil industry, donate to the Orangutan Project at theorangutanproject.org -- and check your products for Palm Oil because it's everywhere.
(01:03:29):
Gaslit Nation is produced by Andrea Chaloupa. Our associate producer is Karlyn Daigle. Our founding production manager is a Nicholas Torres. If you like what we do, please leave us a review on iTunes. It helps us reach more listeners.
(01:03:43):
Original music on Gaslit Nation is produced by David Whitehead, Martin Vissenberg, Nick Barr, Damien Arriaga, and Karlyn Daigle. Our logo design was generously donated by Hamish Smyth of the New York-based firm Order. Thank you so much, Hamish.
(01:03:59):
Gaslit Nation would like to thank our supporters at the producer level on Patreon and higher. Jans Allstrup Rasmussen, Katie Macurus, Anne Bertino, David East, Dawn Rosener, Deborah Schiff, Diana Gallaher, DL Singfield. Icepare is defiant. James D. Leonard, Jared Lombardo, Joe Darcy, Kevin Gannon, Kristen Custer, Larry Gassan, Thea Campbell, Leo Chaloupa, Lily Wachauski, Marcus J. Trent, Mark Mark, Nicole Spear, Randall Brewer, Sherry Escobar, Todd, Dan, Milo and Puby. Work for better, prep for trouble. Ruth and Harnish and Tanya Chaloupa. Thank you all so much for your support of the show. We could not make Gaslit Nation without you.
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